From VM Wed Jul 1 09:47:42 1998 X-VM-Summary-Format: "%n %*%a %-17.17F %-3.3m %2d %4l/%-5c %I\"%s\"\n" X-VM-Labels: nil X-VM-VHeader: ("Resent-" "From:" "Sender:" "To:" "Apparently-To:" "Cc:" "Subject:" "Date:") nil X-VM-Last-Modified: (13780 55649 117957) X-VM-IMAP-Retrieved: nil X-VM-POP-Retrieved: nil X-VM-Bookmark: 1 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["327" "Wed" "1" "July" "1998" "00:24:57" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "11" "starship-design: Re: Tau Ceti" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 327 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA03665 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:02:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo30.mx.aol.com (imo30.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.74]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA03656 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo30.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 7TCNa26167; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 00:24:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <9bfdf536.3599ba1a@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Magnus_Draigh@WEBTV.NET, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Tau Ceti Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 00:24:57 EDT In a message dated 6/27/98 8:36:48 PM, you wrote: >I think I missed it, but, were is the galaxy Tau Ceti >located?(Hemisphere, constilation, close stars,) I would be very happy >if you could answer my question. Thanx alot Can't remember off-hand. I'll forward it to the group. Oh, Tau Ceti is a star, not a galaxy. Kelly From VM Wed Jul 1 09:47:42 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["978" "Tue" "30" "June" "1998" "22:39:27" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "29" "starship-design: Re: Tau Ceti" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 978 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA10704 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:39:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hexadecimal.uoregon.edu (hexadecimal.uoregon.edu [128.223.32.56]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA10688 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [204.214.99.68]) by hexadecimal.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA11628; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:39:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA01327; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:39:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <13721.52112.38389.695016@localhost.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <9bfdf536.3599ba1a@aol.com> References: <9bfdf536.3599ba1a@aol.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.53 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: KellySt@aol.com Cc: Magnus_Draigh@WEBTV.NET, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Tau Ceti Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:39:27 -0700 (PDT) KellySt@aol.com writes: > > In a message dated 6/27/98 8:36:48 PM, you wrote: > > >I think I missed it, but, were is the galaxy Tau Ceti > >located?(Hemisphere, constilation, close stars,) I would be very happy > >if you could answer my question. Thanx alot > > Can't remember off-hand. I'll forward it to the group. Oh, Tau Ceti is a > star, not a galaxy. > > Kelly Tau Ceti is in the constellation Cetus, which is normally visible in autumn and winter in northern latitudes. Cetus is just south of the zodiacal constellation Pisces. Tau Ceti's sky coordinates are: RA 01h 41m 45s Dec -16 deg 12.0 min Its spectral class is G8, making it somewhat cooler than our Sun, and is also about a third as luminous with an absolute visual magnitude of 5.77. For an excellent set of constellation charts that you can easily use to find constellations in the sky, I recommend H. A. Rey's _The Stars_, which was originally published in 1952 and is still in print. From VM Thu Jul 2 16:12:39 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1086" "Thu" "2" "July" "1998" "19:11:11" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "34" "Re: starship-design: Re: Tau Ceti" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1086 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA11921 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 16:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA11888 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 16:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 7EKHa29473; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 19:11:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: stevev@efn.org Cc: Magnus_Draigh@WEBTV.NET, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Tau Ceti Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 19:11:11 EDT In a message dated 6/30/98 11:39:28 PM, stevev@efn.org wrote: >KellySt@aol.com writes: > > > > In a message dated 6/27/98 8:36:48 PM, you wrote: > > > > >I think I missed it, but, were is the galaxy Tau Ceti > > >located?(Hemisphere, constilation, close stars,) I would be very happy > > >if you could answer my question. Thanx alot > > > > Can't remember off-hand. I'll forward it to the group. Oh, Tau Ceti is a > > star, not a galaxy. > > > > Kelly > >Tau Ceti is in the constellation Cetus, which is normally visible >in autumn and winter in northern latitudes. Cetus is just south >of the zodiacal constellation Pisces. Tau Ceti's sky coordinates >are: > >RA 01h 41m 45s >Dec -16 deg 12.0 min > >Its spectral class is G8, making it somewhat cooler than our Sun, >and is also about a third as luminous with an absolute visual >magnitude of 5.77. > >For an excellent set of constellation charts that you can easily >use to find constellations in the sky, I recommend H. A. Rey's >_The Stars_, which was originally published in 1952 and is still >in print. Thanks steve! From VM Mon Jul 6 09:50:55 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1498" "Thu" "2" "July" "1998" "21:37:06" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "45" "starship-design: Fwd: http://sunsite.unc.edu/lunar/school/marine/index.html" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1498 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA15882 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 18:37:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA15870 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 18:37:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 2VYZa27696 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 21:37:06 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: <4efce089.359c35c3@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_899429826_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Fwd: http://sunsite.unc.edu/lunar/school/marine/index.html Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 21:37:06 EDT This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_899429826_boundary Content-ID: <0_899429826@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII --part0_899429826_boundary Content-ID: <0_899429826@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from relay26.mx.aol.com (relay26.mail.aol.com [172.31.109.26]) by air08.mail.aol.com (v45.13) with SMTP; Thu, 02 Jul 1998 06:31:26 -0400 Received: from orions0.orion.org (orions0.orion.org [198.209.8.195]) by relay26.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id GAA26841 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 06:31:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orionc0.orion.org (orionc0 [198.209.8.196]) by orions0.orion.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA21228 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 05:31:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Steve Crutchfield Received: by orionc0.orion.org (8.8.5) id FAA20549; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 05:31:13 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 05:31:13 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199807021031.FAA20549@orionc0.orion.org> To: KellySt@aol.com X-URL: http://sunsite.unc.edu/lunar/school/marine/index.html X-Mailer: Lynx, Version 2.7.1 Subject: http://sunsite.unc.edu/lunar/school/marine/index.html Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit US Subs has moved to: http://www.ussubs.com/ --part0_899429826_boundary-- From VM Mon Jul 6 09:50:57 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["662" "Sun" "5" "July" "1998" "12:59:59" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "21" "starship-design: Re: Tau ceti" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 662 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA14742 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 10:00:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA14707 for ; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 10:00:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 2WMZa04161; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 12:59:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Solarfm@aol.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Tau ceti Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 12:59:59 EDT In a message dated 7/3/98 2:24:55 PM, you wrote: >Greetings, > >I just read the Charter of the starship thing on the web site, and are you serious >that there is a "Solar-System" in Tau Ceti? Their could be. So far no one knows, but their no real reason to think there isn't one there. We kinda moved focus to Alpha centuri thou. Its closer, which is really important given our speed limits. >And how long would it take to reach >there with the technology of an explorer class ship? The explorer class could get up to about 1/3rd light speed, the fuel/sail class about 40% of light speed. So a Fuel/Sail could get to Alpha C. in about 12 years. Kelly From VM Wed Jul 8 11:46:11 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3635" "Wed" "8" "July" "1998" "07:55:28" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "95" "starship-design: FW: SSRT: X-33 Thermal Protection System Test Complete (fwd)" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 3635 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06048 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:44:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA06031 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from destin.gulfnet.com.gulfnet.com (p209.gnt.com [204.49.89.209]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id NAA02145 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:44:00 -0500 Message-ID: <000001bdaaa0$4d808700$d15931cc@destin.gulfnet.com.gulfnet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: starship-design: FW: SSRT: X-33 Thermal Protection System Test Complete (fwd) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:55:28 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: listserv@ds.cc.utexas.edu [mailto:listserv@ds.cc.utexas.edu] On Behalf Of Chris W. Johnson Sent: Friday, July 03, 1998 6:11 PM To: Single Stage Rocket Technology News Subject: SSRT: X-33 Thermal Protection System Test Complete (fwd) Jim Cast Headquarters, Washington, DC June 30, 1998 (Phone: 202/358-1779) Fred A. Brown Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA (Phone: 805/258-2663) Dom Amatore Marshall Space Flight Center, Huntsville, AL (Phone: 256/544-0031) Ron Lindeke Lockheed Martin Skunk Works, CA (Phone: 805/572-4153) RELEASE: 98-117 X-33 THERMAL PROTECTION SYSTEM TESTS COMPLETE NASA's F-15B Aerodynamic Flight Facility aircraft has successfully completed flight testing of Thermal Protection System (TPS) materials for the X-33 Advanced Technology Demonstrator at NASA's Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA. Six flights were flown to test the durability of the TPS materials at flight velocities above the speed of sound, providing data to the X-33 demonstrator program team. The X-33 is scheduled to begin test flights in July 1999. "This is an excellent example of all the testing the X-33 program is performing on the challenging technologies we need for a reusable launch vehicle," said Dan Dumbacher, NASA's X-33 deputy program manager. Thermal protection systems are used on spacecraft to protect them during flight, primarily as a "heat shield" during reentry into Earth's atmosphere. Though the X-33 is a sub-orbital technology demonstrator for an eventual commercially developed and operated single-stage-to-orbit launch system, the X-33 will encounter an extreme heating environment similar to what such a vehicle will encounter during orbital spaceflight and atmospheric reentry. The F-15B reached an altitude of 36,000 feet and a top speed of Mach 1.4 during the flight series. No damage or signs of wear from high speed or maneuvering were apparent on any of the TPS materials, providing further confidence to the X-33 team in the ability of the materials to successfully protect the X-33 and follow-on vehicles in the harsh environment in which they will fly. "With the F-15B we were able to accomplish the X-33 TPS durability flights in a timely and cost-effective manner," said Roy Bryant, Dryden's F-15B project manager. "The X-33 TPS team is very happy with the data obtained during these tests. A satisfied customer indicates a job well done by the F-15 project team." The TPS material samples include metallic Inconel tiles, soft Advanced Flexible Reusable Surface Insulation tiles and sealing materials. They were flown attached to the forward-left side position of the F-15B's Flight Test Fixture II, a device attached underneath the aircraft to carry experiments. In-flight video from the aircraft's onboard video system and chase aircraft photo and video cameras documented the condition of the TPS materials during flights. "I appreciated the expeditious manner in which this flight project was accomplished," said Gary Trippensee, Dryden's X-33 project manager. "The combined B.F. Goodrich Co., Richfield, OH; NASA's Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA; and Dryden test team provided valuable X-33 TPS flight qualification data efficiently and timely," Trippensee said. -end- NOTE TO EDITORS: Photos are available to media representatives from NASA Headquarters by calling 202/358-1900; from the Dryden Photo Archive by calling 805/258-2664; or on the World Wide Web at: http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/gallery/photo/index.html From VM Wed Jul 8 15:00:53 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["45592" "Wed" "8" "July" "1998" "08:02:31" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "985" "starship-design: FW: SpaceViews -- July 1998 by Boston NSS [part 1 of 2]" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 45592 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26575 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:00:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26557 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA26043 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:59:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from destin.gulfnet.com.gulfnet.com ([204.49.84.80]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id QAA19335 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 16:59:21 -0500 Message-ID: <000101bdaabb$a6221660$d15931cc@destin.gulfnet.com.gulfnet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: starship-design: FW: SpaceViews -- July 1998 by Boston NSS [part 1 of 2] Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:02:31 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: SpaceViews-approval@nss.org [mailto:SpaceViews-approval@nss.org] Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 1998 10:58 AM To: undisclosed-recipients:; Subject: SpaceViews -- July 1998 by Boston NSS [part 1 of 2] This is the July 1998 "SpaceViews" (tm) newsletter, published by the Boston chapter of the National Space Society. For a description of related e-mail lists maintained by the Boston NSS, or to stop receiving this SpaceViews newsletter, see the instructions at the end of part 2 of this issue. The next Boston meetings are Saturday, July 11, 11am-4pm Boston NSS picnic, 102 Sanborn Lane, Reading, Mass. and Tuesday, July 14, 1998, 7:30pm 8th floor, 545 Main Street (Tech Square), Cambridge; Speakers: Vickie Kloeris, John Lewis, and Laura Supra "The Lunar-Mars Life Support Test Project Phase III 90-day Test: The Crew Perspective" See "Upcoming Boston NSS Events" later in this newsletter for more information. Future meetings are on the first Thursdays of each month: August TBD, September 3, October 1 SpaceViews is available on the WWW at http://www.spaceviews.com and by FTP from ftp.seds.org in directory /pub/info/newsletters/spaceviews See the very end for information on membership, reprinting, copyright, etc. Copyright (C) 1998 by Boston Chapter of National Space Society, a non-profit educational 501(c)3 organization. All articles in SpaceViews represent the opinions of the authors and do not necessarily represent the views of the Editor, the National Space Society (NSS), or the Boston chapter of the NSS. ==================== S P A C E V I E W S Volume Year 1998, Issue 7 July 1998 http://www.spaceviews.com/1998/07/ *** News *** SOHO Spacecraft Tumbles, Feared Lost Energia Threatens to Abandon Mir Congress, Goldin Debate Space Station Nearby Extrasolar Planet Discovered Mars Pathfinder Science Work Continues Lewis Spacecraft Failure Report Released HALO Launch Attempt Fails Beal Aerospace Plans Larger Booster Third Ariane 5 Launch Delayed to October Atlas Launches Comsat, Zenit Delayed SpaceViews Event Horizon Other News *** Articles *** NOTSNIK: The Navy's Secret Satellite Program [continued in part 2] Doing Space: Making It Happen *** Book Reviews *** Comets Friend and Foe Filling in the Drake Equation *** NSS News *** Upcoming Boston NSS Events Boston NSS June Lecture Summary Philadelphia Area Space Alliance News *** Regular Features *** Jonathan's Space Report No. 364 Space Calendar Editor's Note: On our reader survey earlier this year, we asked if people would be interested in a weekly update version of SpaceViews. The response was overwhelmingly in favor of such a feature. So, I'm proud to announce that later this summer SpaceViews will be coming out approximately weekly (actually, four times a month: on the 1st, 8th, 15th, and 22nd of the month, at least initially, to maintain a regular schedule.) This change will take effect by September, and perhaps earlier in August. This change should also alleviate one of the problems people have had about the e-mail issues: their large size! Many mail programs, such as America Online's, have problems with large files, and either split them into smaller pieces or convert them into file attachments. By spreading the content out over four issues a month, instead of two, we hope to reduce or eliminiate this problem. If you have any questions, comments, suggestions, or concerns about this change, contact me at jeff@spaceviews.com. A couple of minor notes: We're experiencing some technical problems with the Web site right now, because of unannounced changes by the company that hosts the site. The site is up, but some features may be unavailable. We apologize for the problems and hope to have everything working by later today. Also, the July 15 issue of SpaceViews Update may be delayed a few days while the editor is traveling. Regards, Jeff Foust Editor, SpaceViews -- http://www.spaceviews.com/ jeff@spaceviews.com *** News *** SOHO Spacecraft Tumbles, Feared Lost Controllers lost contact with the NASA/ESA Solar and Heliospheric Observatory (SOHO) spacecraft late Wednesday, June 24 as the spacecraft apparently lost control, and mission officials fear the spacecraft may be a total loss. Contact was lost with SOHO at 7:16pm EDT (2316 UT) June 24, during a routine maintainence period. The spacecraft entered an Emergency Sun Reacquisition (ESR) mode at that time, as it fired its thrusters in an effort to realign itself with the Sun. However, all telemetry was lost from the spacecraft and has not been regained. Efforts to raise the spacecraft using NASA's Deep Space Network over the last sveral days have not succeeded. Engineers have continuous access to a 34-meter (112-foot) antenna "for the next few days" to transmit commands to the spacecraft at 10 times the normal power, according to project officials. A 70-meter (230-foot) antenna is also being used to try and pick up telemetry from SOHO. Launchspace magazine reported that its sources within the SOHO project think it is likely contact will not be regained with SOHO, and the spacecraft will be a total loss. NASA was more optimistic, however, in a June 30 press release. Engineers believe the spacecraft is spinning such that the solar panels do not see the Sun. However, the angle of the spacecraft is changing as it goes around the Sun, increasing the amount of sunlight falling on the panels each day. Engineers believe that within a few weeks, the panels may be generating enough energy to power up the spacecraft's batteries and permit communications with Earth to be restored. A joint NASA/ESA inquiry board was announced June 30 to investiagate the incident. The board will be chaired by Prof. Massimo Trella, ESA Inspector General, and Dr. Michael Greenfield, Deputy Associate Administrator for the Office of Safety and Mission Assurance at NASA. SOHO was launched on an Atlas II rocket on December 2, 1995 from Cape Canaveral. It completed its nominal two-year science mission in April, although daily scientific operations jhave continued since then. The spacecraft is in a "halo orbit" around the Earth-Sun L-1 libration point, about 1.5 million kilometers (900,000 miles) sunward of Earth. Engineers believe they can successfully predict the location of SOHO for about five months, before orbital pertubations force SOHO out of its halo orbit. The spacecraft features twelve instruments, three from the U.S. and nine from Europe, dedicated to the study of the Sun. Findings made by scientists using SOHO data include an explanation for the extremely high temperatures of the solar corona, the discovery of "sunquakes" on the photosphere, and the discovery of more than 50 sungrazing comets. Energia Threatens to Abandon Mir Energia, the Russian company that operates the space station Mir for the Russian Space Agency (RSA), said Friday, June 26 that it would abandon the station as early as August if the space agency does not pay any of the money it owes for station operations. Energia officials say RSA owes the company 440 million rubles (US$70 million) in station operations costs for this year. RSA has not paid any of the money it owes this year, Energia said. A decision to abandon Mir could come as soon as July, several weeks in advance of the scheduled launch date of the next crew. The current crew of Talgat Musabayev and Nikolai Budarin is due to return in August. Their stay cannot be extended because of the limited lifetime of the Soyuz return vehicle currently docked to Mir. Energia officials met with RSA leaders on Friday to discuss the status of the station and to consider "nonstandard solutions" to the problem, according to Itar-Tass. Those nonstandard solutions were not publicly discussed. Energia president Yuri Semyonov said the company wants to keep Mir operational, but believes it is the Russian government's responsibility to pay for it. "We are absolutely against abandoning the station, and if we do that it will be the government's responsibility," he said. RSA director Yuri Koptev agreed the situation is serious. "If we cannot act, there will be a situation when we will have to lift off the crew from the Mir in August and close the station," he said. If abandoned, Mir would likely lose attitude control and start tumbling after a short time. It could then reenter the Earth's atmosphere uncontrolled, with the danger of large pieces landing intact in urbanized areas. RSA currently plans to deorbit Mir in a series of controlled thruster burns, with the goal of reentering the station over the Pacific by the end of 1999. The first of four thruster burns was to take place earlier this month, but was postponed when budget problems prevented the timely launch of a replacement cargo vehicle that would have been used in the deorbiting procedure. Congress, Goldin Debate Space Station Projected cost overruns in the International Space Station project was the subject of considerable debate during Congressional hearings Wednesday, June 24, as NASA Administrator Dan Goldin defended the program, predicting dire consequences if the station was canceled. "If we cancel the space station, we will be canceling manned space flight," Goldin said at a meeting of the House Science Committee. "If we cancel the program, we will be a second-class power and there would be international repercussions." The hearing was convened after the release the previous week of NASA's response to the independent Chabrow report, which concluded earlier this year the station would need up to an additional $3 billion and three years before completion. NASA agreed with most of the conclusions in the Chabrow report, although claimed the additional costs could be held to a little over $1 billion with a delay of one year. Members of the committee asked Goldin what steps the agency was taking to deal with the station's problems, including a number of delays in the completion of the Russian-built Service Module. Goldin did not give specifics but said a number of plans were being evaluated. Goldin's assurances that NASA was working on the problem did not soothe members of the committee, who attacked NASA and the Clinton Administration for failing to do enough to support the station and deal with Russian delays. The program was likened to a "fine kettle of fish that are starting to smell," in the words of Rep. Vernon Ehlers (R-MI), while Rep. Sherwood Boehlert (R-NY) said that Goldin's optimistic opening statement "looked like Mary Poppins wrote it." While there is little the committee can do at the present time to affect the space station, committee chairman F. James Sensenbrenner (R-WI) said he and ranking minority member George Brown (D-CA) sent a letter to the White House, asking the Office of Management and the Budget to deliver a plan to Congress in 30 days to deal with the space station. "We need a plan, not a continuing series of ad hoc adjustments to the latest station funding or programmatic crisis," Brown said. Meanwhile, another person testifying before the committee said the station costs could grow even further. Allen Li of the General Accounting Office said more money may be needed to track orbital debris and protect the station from it. "NASA's requirements for space debris tracking will require the Defense Department to upgrade their capabilities," Li told the committee. Such upgrades and additional station shielding could cost up to $5 billion, he said. Nearby Extrasolar Planet Discovered Two astronomers who are among the world's leaders in the discovery of extrasolar planets reported this week they they have discovered another extrasolar planet orbiting a star near the Sun. Geoffrey W. Marcy of San Francisco State University and Paul Butler of the Anglo-Australian Observatory, and colleagues, reported at a conference Monday, June 22 that they had discovered a planet orbiting the star Gliese 876, just 15 light-years from Earth. The planet has a mass about 1.6 times that of Jupiter, our solar system's largest planet, and orbits the star about 0.2 astronomical units (30 million kilometers, 18.6 million miles) away. It takes 61 days for the planet to complete an orbit around Gliese 876. The discovery has been confirmed by a European team of astronomers led by Xavier Delfosse of Geneva Observatory in Switzerland. "It's very convincing that they have confirmed the finding," Marcy told Science News. Gliese 876 is a small star with only about one-third the mass of the Sun and one-fortieth its brightness. It's the smallest star yet around which planets have been discovered. the discovery hints that planetary systems "may be a common occurrence among stars that are quite different from the Sun," Marcy said. Calculations by Didier Saumon of Vanderbilt University show that the planet, presumed to be a gas giant like Jupiter, would have a temperature at its cloudtops of about -76 degrees Celsius (-105 degrees Fahrenheit). While far below the temperature of liquid water, it would be possible for it to exist in deeper, warmer layers of the planet. Marcy warned, though, that "we shouldn't go into a feeding frenzy about this," noting that liquid water could not aggregate together into an environment supportive of life. Any moons the planet might have, though, could be more hospitable to life. The discovery brings to 12 the number of extrasolar planets discovered, Marcy said. Astronomers in Geneva are expected to announce the discovery of additional extrasolar planets in the next few weeks. Mars Pathfinder Science Work Continues Scientists are continuing to analyze the data returned by the Mars Pathfinder spacecraft, nearly a year after it landed on the Red Planet, and are coming up with some surprising conclusions about the history of the landing site. "Many of the things that we said last summer during the excitement of the landing have held up well," project scientist Matthew Golombek said at a press conference June 29. "But we have now had more time to study the data and are coming up with some new conclusions." Much of the work is focused on the nature and origin of the geology in the landing site, located in Ares Vallis. The area had been considered a likely site of flooding during Mars's warmer, wetter past, a conclusion supported by Pathfinder data. However, Golombek said little has changed in the landing site over the last two or more billion years, with the exception of some wind erosion. Golombek speculated that the flooding in Ares Vallis took place after a major climate change that made Mars cold and dry took place. The winds that are slowly stripping away the rocks at the Pathfinder landing site are likely depositing material elsewhere on the planet, Golombek said. "Amazonis Planitia, for example, probably has one to two meters [3.3 to 6.6 feet] of fine powdery dust that you would sink into if you stepped on it," he noted. Scientists are also trying to understand how rocks enriched with silicon that Pathfinder and its rover Sojourner found could have been formed. The rocks are similar to andesites found in Iceland and the Galapagos Islands on Earth, according to spectrometer scientist Joy Crisp. Crisp said the rocks could have been formed by volcanic processes, like on Earth, or through sedimentary processes driven by water. The rocks could also have been formed in a meteor impact, and may be more ordinary basaltic rocks with a high-silicon outer coating caused by weathering. Crisp said one way to determine how the rocks were formed is to study their textures. However, she noted, there isn't enough information in the Pathfinder images to come to any conclusions about their origin based on this technique. Other research has focused on dust devils, localized spiraling, gusting winds seen on Mars as well as Earth. Steven Metzger of the University of Nevada analyzed Pathfinder images downloaded from the Internet and applied special processing techniques to them to discover several more dust devils, including five seen on a single Martian day. Dust devils may be one way to explain how the Martian surface is covered with the same kind of magnetic iron- and silicon-rich soil, according to JPL planetary scientist Diana Blaney. Blaney also said meteor impacts into wet regolith early in Martian history may have helped form the soil, although she said the formation is a "very complicated story." Mars Pathfinder landed on Mars on July 4, 1997. It and its rover, Sojourner, returned data on the Martian surface and atmosphere until late September, when a battery on the lander apparently died. The mission was officially ended November 4, although a final, unsuccessful effort to contact the lander was made in March. Scientists are now turning their attention to the two 1998 Mars missions, scheduled for launch at the end of the year and early 1999. Mars Climate Orbiter will study Martian weather from orbit, while the Polar Lander will set down in the layered terrain near the south polar cap in an effort to understand and nature and composition of the layers of dust and ice there. Lewis Spacecraft Failure Report Released A combination of a flaw in an attitude control system and insufficient monitoring by ground personnel led to the failure of the Lewis spacecraft just days after launch last August, a review board reported Tuesday, June 23. The Lewis Spacecraft Mission Failure Review Board did conclude that NASA's new "faster, cheaper, better" management philosophy, of which Lewis was one of the first products, was sound, but not effectively applied for this program. The spacecraft, launched August 23, 1997, went into a flat spin three days after launch. The spin cut power and communications to the satellite, which were never restored. Unable to adjust its orbit, the spacecraft reentered the Earth's atmosphere a month later and was destroyed. The spacecraft used an attitude-control system adapted from one used on the Total Ozone Mapping Spectrometer (TOMS) spacecraft. The board found that TRW, builders of both spacecraft, failed to properly test the attitude-control system on Lewis, which was stabilized differently that TOMS. After launch, the spacecraft started to spin up, perhaps by imbalances from thruster firings. The spin eventually overloaded the spacecraft's control system while it was in an autonomous "safehold mode", leading to the out-of-control spin. The board also concluded that project managers erred in believing the spacecraft could be adequately controlled in safehold mode with only a small ground crew to monitor the status of the spacecraft. These errors combined caused the failure of the mission. Lewis was a $65-million spacecraft designed to test advanced instruments and technologies useful for remote-sensing spacecraft. It and a companion spacecraft, Clark, were cornerstones of NASA's philosophy of "faster, cheaper, better" started by administrator Dan Goldin. The Clark spacecraft was canceled earlier this year because of cost overruns and concerns that the spacecraft would not be able to meet its intended goals. The failure of Lewis should not be construed as a failure of this philosophy, though, the board noted. "I do not think that this concept ["faster, cheaper, better"] is flawed," said Christine Anderson, chair of the failure board. "What was flawed in the Lewis program, beyond some engineering assumptions, was the lack of clear understanding between NASA and TRW about how to apply this philosophy effectively." "NASA's Office of the Chief Engineer is developing 'lessons learned' from this project and other 'faster, cheaper, better' efforts," said Dr. Ghassem Asrar, NASA associate administrator for Earth Science, "and we intend to apply them to all our future missions." HALO Launch Attempt Fails In an event project officials called "embarrassing, but not disaster," an attempt to launch an amateur-built rocket into space failed Saturday, June 21 when the rocket slipped out of its launch cradle as its balloon lifted off. A helium-filled balloon lifted off from a NASA barge in the Gulf of Mexico southeast of New Orleans late Saturday morning. The balloon was to carry the Project HALO (High-Altitude Lift-Off) Sky Launch 2 rocket to 30,000 meters altitude (100,000 feet) before the rocket engine fired. However, a balloon tether snagged on the rocket as the balloon lifted off, lifting the rocket off its launch cradle unde the balloon. The rocket fell 1.5 meters (five feet) to the deck of the barge as the balloon floated skyward. The rocket suffered some minor damage in the fall, including a cracked nosecone, broken fin, and a dent in the oxidizer tank, but the rocket appeared to have escaped major damage. After the launch, HALO team members said a new launch may be attempted in late fall, provided about $5,000 can be raised to cover repair costs. Project officials said the NASA barge used for the June launch would not be available for future launches, requiring the team to find their own launch site, file with the FAA, and possibly purchase liability insurace, whose premium could far exceed the cost of the rocket. HALO team members had hoped a successful launch would make the rocket the first amateur-built rocket to fly into space. The suborbital rocket would have to have flown above an altitude of 91.6 km (56.8 mi, 50 nautical miles),the NASA and the U.S. Air Force definition of the boundary of space. The hybrid SL-2 rocket uses a combination of solid and liquid fuels. In this system, the solid fuel, pure asphalt, is safely kept away from the liquid propellant, nitrous oxide (better known as "laughing gas") until the rocket is ignited. The fuel combination provides about 85% of the efficiency of the best solid-propellant systems, HALO team members say. HALO, a project of the Huntsville, Alabama chapter of the National Space Society, has relied on volunteer labor and donations to develop their "rockoon" launch system. Saturday's launch did include support from NASA, as the space agency provided the launch barge and the helium for the balloon. Beal Aerospace Plans Larger Booster Beal Aerospace, a Texas-based startup launch firm, announced last week it was skipping plans for a smaller expendable booster in favor of moving directly ahead to a more powerful rocket capable of competing with the largest existing commercial offerings. The company is scrapping plans for the BA-1 booster in favor of the larger BA-2, according to a June 16 company announcement. The BA-2 will be able to place 5,000 kg (11,000 lbs.) -- two medium to large communications satellites -- in geostationary transfer orbit. The BA-2 would directly compete with such rockets as the Ariane-5. "The BA-2 has always been the ultimate goal," said company CEO Andrew Beal. "Given our past successes, I am extremely confident that we can develop the BA-2 and dramatically reduce the cost of space launch." The three-stage BA-2 will use what's billed as the world's largest rocket engine, a hydrogen peroxide-fueled engine capable of producing 13.4 million newtons (3 million pounds of thrust), twice that of the F-1 engine used in the Saturn V. "Hydrogen peroxide is key to the simplicity of our design," said program manager Scott Frazier. "It is safe, environmentally benign, and has fundamentally different combustion properties which bypass previous engine development problems associated with large thrust chambers." A scaled-down version of the engine was tested successfully in late May and early June, the company said. No date for the first launch of the BA-2 was announced. The company had planned to start launching the BA-1 by late 1997, using a launch site on Sombrero Island in the Caribbean. The company has an option to lease the launch site from the island nation of Anguilla. Third Ariane 5 Launch Delayed to October The European Space Agency announced Tuesday, June 16, that the third launch of the heavy-lift Ariane 5 booster has been delayed to October because of a change in payload. Ariane 503 was scheduled for a September launch, carrying the Eutelsat W2 communications satellite and the Atmospheric Reentry Demonstrator (ARD), a technology demonstration satellite. However, Eutelsat decided last week to fly its W2 satellite on an existing Ariane 4 booster after its W1 satellite was damaged during tests at an assembly facility in France. The W1 satellite was to fly on the Ariane 4 in July. ESA and Arianespace, builders of the Ariane rocket, were unable to find a commercial payload for the Ariane 503. "The search for a new passenger cannot be reconciled with the planning schedule leading to entry of Ariane-5 into operational service," ESA said in a press release. In place of the W2 satellite, ESA will fly a "representative mock-up" of the W2 satellite, making the ARD the only real payload for the launch. The time needed to build and test the mock-up will delay the launch from September to mid-October. The flight is the last of three qualification flights planned for the heavy-lift booster. The first flight, Ariane 501, ended in failure less than a minute after launch in June 1996 when the booster veered off course. Problems with the control software were blamed for the failure. Ariane 502 lifted off last October, carrying two test satellites. However, the main engine of the booster shut down early, placing the satellites in the wrong orbit. The error was traced to excessive roll torque in the engine, a problem since corrected. The ARD is a unmanned spacecraft designed to test critical reentry technologies. It will fly a suborbital mission, reentering over the Pacific Ocean and splashing down. Technologies tested in the ARD may later be used in plans for a European crew transfer vehicle launched by the Ariane 5, possibly based on the American X-38 vehicle being tested as a space station lifeboat. Atlas Launches Comsat, Zenit Delayed An Atlas II booster launched an Intelsat communications satellite June 19 while the launch of a Ukrainian Zenit booster was delayed by at least a week June 24 by problems with its guidance system. The Atlas IIAS lifted off at 6:48pm EDT (2248 UT) from Cape Canaveral, Florida. The Intelsat 805 satellite separated from the booster about a half-hour after launch. The satellite, which will take up a position in geosynchronous orbit at approximately 60 degrees West, will be used to relay communications between the Americas and Europe. Those communications are planned to include video and electronic communications. The launch of the Zenit-2 from Baikonur, Kazakhstan, was scheduled for June 23 but delayed a day by problems with the booster's orientation system. The unit was repaired, but failed again before Wednesday's scheduled launch. The booster will be taken off the launch pad to an assembly shop for repairs, a spokesman for the Russian Space Agency told Itar-Tass. Repairs will take at least a week to complete, he said. The Zenit-2 will launch five satellites. The main payload is a Russian Resurs remote sensing satellite, designed to return environmental and weather data. Four smaller satellites, representing several nations including Chile, Thailand, and Israel, will perform a variety of experiments. The launch is the first for the Zenit since a May 1997 launch ended in an explosion shortly after liftoff. The Zenit has experienced other launch failures in the recent past as well. SpaceViews Event Horizon July 1: North American preimere of asteroid-impact movie "Armageddon" July 1: Launch of Zenit booster from Baikonur, Kazakhstan, carrying five satellites July 4: Launch of M-5 booster carrying Japanese Planet-B spacecraft (Mars mission) July 14: Launch of the Sinosat 1 communications satellite on a Long March 3B. July 21: Galileo flyby of Europa August 13-16: Mars Society Founding Convention, Boulder, Colorado Other News HGS-1 in Earth Orbit: The HGS-1 (formerly AsiaSat 3) satellite entered geosynchronous orbit June 17, after completing two flybys of the Moon. Launched on Christmas Day last year, the satellite was stranded in an inclined transfer orbit when the upper stage of its Proton booster failed. Engineers at Hughes, working with the satellite's insurers, guided the spacecraft on a trajectory that allowed the spacecraft to reach geosynchronous orbit using only the limited feul supplies onboard. Hughes Global Services is now looking for customers for the satellite, temporarily stationed over the Pacific. "The lunar recovery mission team did an outstanding job," HGS president Ronald Swanson said. "It really validates the viability of this technique for future missions." Comet Discovery Award: Amateur astronomers who discover new comets will now not only win fame, they'll win fortune, too -- up to $20,000 in prize money in an award announced by the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory (SAO) June 15. The Edgar Wilson Award, named after a late Kentucky businessman with an interest in astronomy, will provide prize money for comets discovered by amateur astronomers using amateur equipment. The prize money will be divided among all qualifying amateurs based on the number of comets each astronomer discovers. Prizes will be awarded on a yearly basis, with the first prizes to be announced around July 1, 1999. International Mars Collaboration: The United States and France may work together on a Mars sample return mission slated for a 2005 launch, officials from the two countried announced June 18. Under the proposed agreement CNES, the French space agency, would provide an Ariane-5 booster to launch the spacecraft and some spacecraft components, including an orbiter. NASA would provide the lander, rover, and other equipment, and retain overall management of the mission, with participation by American and French scientists. The announcement comes as the U.S. and Europe struggle to support future Mars missions: cost overruns and budget cutbacks have forced the Athena rover off a NASA 2001 lander, and the European Space Agency is struggling to fund its Mars Express mission, planned for 2003, at the same time as other space science projects. Hubble Discoveries: The Hubble Space Telescope has returned images of a giant dust disk, resembling the hubcap of a car tire, surrounding a suspected black hole in a distant galaxy. The dust disk, about 3,700 light years across in the galaxy NGC 7052, may have been formed by the collision of the galaxy with a smaller galaxy in the distant past. Astronomers have also used Hubble to uncover a warming trend on Triton, Neptune's largest moon. Triton's temperature has warmed by about five percent -- from 37 to 39 kelvins (-392 to -389 degrees Fahrenheit) -- since the Voyager 2 flyby in 1989. A team of astronomers led by Jim Elliot of MIT believe the warming trend is caused by seasonal changes, as Triton is approaching an "extreme southern summer" where much of the southern hemisphere of the moon is in constant sunlight. Commercial Radarsat Approved: A California company announced June 22 that it has received permission from the federal government to build and launch the world's first commercial radar satellite that can provide high-resolution images to government and private users. The Radar1 satellite, built by RDL Space Corporation, will provide 1-meter resolution images, day or night, in any kind of weather, starting in 2001. Such images are widely used by the Defense Department and have also been used, at much lower resolutions, for geological research. In Brief: Houston and Dolores Woods of Nashville, Tennessee, must be thankful they decided not to sleep in Saturday morning, June 13. A small lump of metal -- believed to be a meteorite -- struck their house and landed on their bed at around 9am. The Woods were not in bed at the time of impact. The meteorite was examined at a local science museum and turned over to the Smithsonian for further analysis... Cinescape OnLine reported last week that director James Cameron had approached NASA about flying on the shuttle to film a movie about the construction of the International Space Station. Both Cameron and NASA have denied those reports. NASA wouldn't want Cameron around the space station anyway, since Cameron directed "Titanic"... The world preimere of the asteroid-impact movie "Armageddon" was held June 29 at the Kennedy Space Center. As more than one person pointed out, it's a bit ironic that NASA, which has announced additional support for the detection of potentially hazardous near-Earth objects, has thrown its support behind a movie that is far less credible (or perhaps far more unbelievable) than Deep Impact, which got essentially no NASA support... *** Articles *** NOTSNIK: The Navy's Secret Satellite Program by Andrew J. LePage Introduction Like the other branches of the United States military during the early years of the Space Age, the Navy's "space program" actually consisted of several, largely independent space projects run by different internal bureaus and laboratories. While the Navy Research Laboratory (NRL) ran the Vanguard program under the watchful gaze of the public, the Naval Ordnance Test Station (NOTS) at China Lake, California was secretly conducting an independent military satellite program whose existance was not acknowledged until 1994. NOTS, under the direction of the Navy's Bureau of Ordnance (BuOrd), had been responsible for the development rocket-based weapons for the Navy since its inception in 1943. During the years leading up to the Space Age, engineers and scientists at NOTS were already busy performing research on suborbital and satellite ocean surveillance systems. With the launch of Sputnik, a NOTS team proposed an all-solid-fuel launch vehicle based on the motors in the Army's Sargent missile. However, the Army turned down their request for the rocket motors. Undetered, NOTS engineers went back to the drawing board and by early 1958 came up with a remarkably innovative means of orbiting a payload with available hardware. The new NOTS satellite proposal, called "Project Pilot", used a six-stage air-launched system capable of orbiting a 1.05 kilogram (2.3 pound) satellite. This system would serve as a technological pathfinder for the Navy's future rapid response reconaissance systems. The technical director of BuOrd's new space program office, John Nicolaides, approved the project and development immeadiately proceeded with a $300,000 budget and a four month deadline. Subsequently Project Pilot received the nickname "NOTSNIK" based on a combination of NOTS and Nicolaides' name but also partly as a play on the "Sputnik" moniker. The NOTSNIK Launch Vehicle The "first stage" of NOTSNIK was a specially modified Douglas F4D-1 "Skyray" jet fighter supplied by BuAer. When the F4D-1 entered service in 1956, it was the Navy's first carrier-based delta-winged jet fighter. The 13.9 meter (45.67 foot) long F4D-1 to be used for NOTSNIK, serial number 130745, was a specially modified, stripped down version used for high speed trial flights. With its Pratt and Whitney J57-P-2 turbojet on full afterburner, this plane was capable of attaining speeds of Mach 1.05. The tight clearances and limited payload capability of the Skyray set the limits on the size and weight of the subsequent five stages of the NOTSNIK launch vehicle. This rocket had a total length of 4.38 meters (14.4 feet), a fin span of 1.65 meters (5.42 feet) and weighed only 950 kilograms (2,100 pounds). Even with the mass of the Skyray included, NOTSNIK is the smallest known system ever built to launch satellites. The rocket was mounted on a standard Aero 7A bomb rack under Skyray's port wing. A fuel tank of like mass was carried under the starboard wing to balance the load. During a launch, the Skyray would proceed at an altitude of 10.7 kilometers (35,000 feet) to the air-drop zone located in the Navy's test range over the Santa Barbara Channel in the Pacific Ocean just west of Los Angeles. Before release the pilot would start a 2-G pullup at Mach 0.9 to start a "bomb toss" manuever. At an altitude of 12.5 kilometers (41,000 feet), the rocket would be released at a speed of 742 kilometers (461 miles) per hour and an angle of 50 degrees to the horizon. Three seconds later the first of the solid rocket stages would ignite. The second and third "stages" of NOTSNIK made use of a common airframe. Each "stage" consisted of a pair of modified HOTROC motors like those used by the Navy's ASROC anti-submarine weapon and produced 126.4 kilonewtons (28,400 pounds) of thrust for 4.86 seconds. During ascent the burn of the second stage would be followed by a 12 second coast before the third stage ignited. After third stage burnout, the vehicle would coast for another 100 seconds. At an altitude of 79.4 kilometers (49.4 miles) the second/third stage structure was jettisoned and the fourth stage was ignited. This stage consisted of an X-241 rocket motor manufactured by the Allegheny Ballistic Laboratory. Based on the X-248 motor developed for the NRL Vangaurd rocket, the X-241 produced 12.11 kilonewtons (2,720 pounds) of thrust for 36 seconds. After another coast of three seconds, the fifth stage would come to life. This 14.9 kilogram (32.9 pound) motor was designed at NOTS and produced 5.14 kilonewtons (1,155 pounds) of thrust for 5.7 seconds. After this stage burned out, NOTSNIK was travelling at 8.44 kilometers (5.25 miles) per second in a near-polar orbit with a apogee of about 2,400 kilometers (1,500 miles). But with a perigee of about 60 kilometers (40 miles), this orbit would be very short-lived. A small 568 gram (1.25 pound) solid rocket sixth stage integrated with the satellite payload would be fired 53 minutes and 20 seconds after release. Also developed at NOTS, this tiny motor produced 765 Newtons (172 pounds) of thrust for one second and would raise the NOTSNIK satellite's perigee to a safe 2,250 kilometers (1,400 miles) allowing the mission to begin. The NOTSNIK Satellite With a mass of 1.05 kilograms (2.3 pounds) and a diameter of 20 centimeters (8 inches), the doughnut-shaped NOTSNIK satellite is among the smallest orbital payloads ever launched. This battery-powered satellite was constructed at NOTS China Lake facility and carried a single instrument - an infrared "television" scanner. Similar to the units supplied by the Navy for the USAF lunar orbiters, this simple imager was hardly a "television" in the usual sense. A small mirror focused light onto an infrared detector which would use the rotation of the satellite to scan a line in the scene. The forward motion of the satellite itself would then allow a picture to be built one line at a time. While the crude images produced by this system would have little intelligence value, the experienced gained would be valuable in developing more capable follow-on systems. The images produced by the satellite would be transmitted to a network of about a half dozen portable MINITRACK stations scattered around the globe. Because of the small size of the satellite, the system would only operate for about three orbits before the batteries were depleted, long enough to verify that orbit had been achieved and attempt to secure some images. Since orbital reconnaissance was a touchy subject at the time, NOTSNIK and its mission were kept top secret. Except for those with a need to know, NOTSNIK's "cover story" was that it was to conduct radiation measurements in support of Project Argus which would assess the effects of nuclear detonations in space. The satellite's small size and short lifetime made it unlikely that it would be detected by anyone outside the program. Hardware development proceeded at a rapid pace during the spring of 1958. But before actual flights of the system, a pair of ground-launched test flights were to be performed to assess the modifications made to the HOTROC motors. A NOTSNIK rocket mockup with two live HOTROC motors was prepared for launch from the G-2 test range at China Lake on July 4, 1958. In an unintended Independence Day fireworks display, the rocket exploded one second after launch. An investigation of the failure indicated that a crack in the solid rocket motor's grain was at fault. A second ground test firing two weeks later was even less successful. With eight seconds left in the countdown, a glitch in the electrical system caused the rocket to blow up on the test stand. Despite the two failures, project managers proceeded with an orbital attempt based on their engineers' past experience and their faith in this simple launch system. NOTSNIK Launch Attempts On July 25, 1958, only a week after the last unsuccessful NOTSNIK ground test, Navy Pilot Commander William W. West climbed into the cockpit of the BuAer Skyray carrying a NOTSNIK rocket in the first all-up test flight. Once Commander West reached the the drop zone, he performed the required pullup maneuver and released the rocket. Because of the sudden loss of weight from his port wing, West's Skyray banked sharply to the right making further observations of the rocket difficult. With the sudden burst of smoke and flame from the ignition of the second stage, West and the pilot of the chase plane lost sight of the rocket and assumed it had failed. While most of the tracking network shutdown after the apparent failure, the station in Christchurch, New Zealand did not and reportedly detected the NOTSNIK satellite in orbit. While no useful images could be extracted from the weak signal, it did appear that the launch was successful afterall. NOTSNIK thus became the first air-launched satellite - almost 32 years before the first Pegasus launch. With a success under their belt, a second orbital attempt was made on August 8, 1958. The HOTROC motors blew up on ignition ending the mission. Another pair of ground tests were conducted on August 16 and 17 to once again verify the design. Both flights failed about three seconds after ignition when their stabilizing fins broke free. Obviously the structure had difficulties with the stresses of launch and required changes. With little time left before the end of the program, the remaining four NOTSNIK rockets were prepared for launch in rapid succession. The third orbital attempt on August 22, 1958 started well with the accelerating rocket observed disappearing over the horizon. Later signals were received by the New Zealand station during the scheduled first and third orbital passes apparently confirming that orbit had been achieved. As with the first mission, the signals were too weak to obtain usable images. The next mission flown on August 25 ended 3.75 seconds after release when one of the HOTROC motors exploded. The following day the fifth attempt ended when the rocket failed to ignite and fell into the Pacific. The final NOTSNIK orbital attempt on August 28 ended when the rocket broke up after a second stage HOTROC motor failed to ignite. With this last flight, the first phase of the NOTSNIK program drew to a close. Postscript Plans for additional NOTSNIK flights were not approved and development efforts instead shifted towards upgrading the existing rocket design. One project, called Caleb, sought to build an improved air-launch system but was eventually cancelled because of political pressure from the USAF who wanted to monopolize military space launches. While it would not launch payloads into orbit, Caleb did fly as part of the Navy's secret high altitude "Hi-Hoe" program with the last flight in 1962 reportedly reaching an altitude of 1,167.3 kilometers (725.5 miles). Another follow-on program, called NOTSNIK II, sought to develop an anti-satellite capability. This still-secret program is thought to have made at least two test flights during the early 1960s. The NOTSNIK rocket was not the only part of the program to continue development. The infrared scanner carried by the NOTSNIK satellite also flew on the ill fated USAF lunar probes as part of Operation Mona. After these failures to return usable data, the design was eventually flown as a secret secondary experiment on some early flights of the Navy's Transit experimental navigation satellite. The camera operated satisfactorily and returned usable images, thus vindicating its design and providing useful data for future imaging systems. Bibliography Peter Pesavento, "US Navy's Untold Story of Space-Related Firsts", Spaceflight, Vol. 38, No. 7, pp. 239-243, July 1996 Peter Pesavento, "Secret Revealed About the Early US Navy Space Programme", Spaceflight, Vol. 38, No. 7, pp. 243-245, July 1996 Joel W. Powell, "Rockets Red Glare", Quest, Vol. 3, No. 1, pp. 58-61, Spring 1994 Joel W. Powell, "The Nots Air-Launched Satellite Programme", Journal of the British Interplanetary Society, Vol. 50, No. 11, pp. 433-440, November 1997 Keith J. Scala, "A History of Air-Launched Space Vehicles", Quest, Vol. 3, No. 1, pp. 34-41, Spring 1994 [continued in part 2] From VM Wed Jul 8 15:01:22 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["36357" "Wed" "8" "July" "1998" "08:05:25" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "802" "starship-design: FW: SpaceViews -- July 1998 by Boston NSS [part 2 of 2]" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 36357 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26735 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:01:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA26705 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from destin.gulfnet.com.gulfnet.com ([204.49.84.80]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id RAA19519 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:00:59 -0500 Message-ID: <000201bdaabb$b071dba0$d15931cc@destin.gulfnet.com.gulfnet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: starship-design: FW: SpaceViews -- July 1998 by Boston NSS [part 2 of 2] Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:05:25 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: SpaceViews-approval@nss.org [mailto:SpaceViews-approval@nss.org] Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 1998 1:41 PM To: undisclosed-recipients:; Subject: SpaceViews -- July 1998 by Boston NSS [part 2 of 2] [continued from part 1] Doing Space: Making It Happen by Timothy K. Roberts [Editor's Note: This is the third and final installment in the "Doing Space" series by Timothy K. Roberts. Part one, "Speedbumps on the Road to Space," was published in the May issue. Part two, "Why Do We Go?", was published in the June issue.] If you've been following along in this miniseries, you've already gotten rid of some serious misconceptions about our space programs. And you've begun to think about the basic reasons we want to go to space -- or, indeed, anywhere. True believers are frustrated at the slow pace of progress to any of these ends. Potential investors are impatient with the lack of development of this new arena. Three-Step Evolution How do we make these things happen? Actually, we already know how. I'm not speaking of the technical problems but of the strategic ones -- how do we as Americans, as humans, go about getting into space on a serious basis? The answer is surprisingly mundane -- do what we've already done in similar situations. Every time a culture or a nation has seen advantage in moving into a new environment to explore and exploit and has done so successfully, it has followed a three-step process: 1) The government (or ruling group) has funded development of methods of transportation, exploration, and exploitation of the new environment. This has taken the form of royal investment in new ships, government incentives for new canals, federal funding for railroads and airports, and of course, national space programs to date. The reason for this is, again, simple: a new environment always means unknown risks and rewards. Private investors of any ilk will not stake their treasure on such unknowns. Only a body with vast resources and a perceived immunity to risk will confront such an investment environment. 2) Once the initial way has been cleared and technical feasibility has been demonstrated, private investors will begin to take on clearly defined pieces of the new environment with an eye to relatively easy profits. They will only do so with significant government help. Royal charters in the Americas, private toll roads, railroad expansion, and airport development are all examples of this step. In space, this is seen in the use of space for telecommunications. This is an area that the federal government invested heavily in for its own reasons, demonstrated feasibility of, and then created a market for. Only when there was a guaranteed return on investment would private industry take the plunge. 3) The final step is full commercial participation in exploiting the new environment. We can see this today in the communications satellite industry. Hughes doesn't need government support to make money from comsats -- they do quite nicely on their own, thank you. This last phase is where we really want to be, in all potential areas of space exploitation. As has been shown in many industries, true innovation and market expansion occurs best without government direction or involvement. The free market really does work -- eventually. Air transport followed the three-step model outlined above fairly cleanly through step two. After the initial inventions (developed, I must note, entirely privately), further development of practical air transport was closely tied to government investment in military aircraft. Airliners followed from bombers. Aerial navigation was perfected to ensure fighters and bombers could reach their intended targets. Virtually all significant improvements in aircraft started with a governmental need. Only when the government had assumed the initial risks and showed the feasibility of air transport would private industry become involved. And their first and largest customer? The federal government. It is a fact that commercial aviation as a long-range transportation industry only emerged as serious competition to ships and railroads after World War II, when the US government (primarily) invested heavily in precisely those things that an airline would need to compete. The complication comes in arriving at step three. Virtually all airports of any commercial importance are owned and operated by a governmental agency. Air traffic control is a national government monopoly with strong world-wide overtones and implications. Private companies may perform specific services in airports and air traffic control but they do so under government direction. This is a common characteristic of most transportation systems. Government build highways, harbors, airports, and, yes, spaceports. Governments control how these facilities will be used and by whom. The underlying reason is that transportation is a critical public need and can't be left in private hands. We'll revisit this point later on. Space Transportation's Three Steps So where are we in space? The answer is: all three steps. The federal government is very clearly deeply involved in research and development in virtually every phase of space exploration and exploitation, from basic transportation to data and telemetry transmission. There isn't a facet of "space" that the government isn't working on. However, there is, for example, a space transportation industry. It is clearly at step two -- it is dependent on government owned and operated spaceports and investors will only put private money into the most conservative rocket designs for production. There is virtually no significant private funding for new, innovative, cheap spacelift -- that's back at step one. There are step three segments as well. As noted earlier, the communications satellite industry acts as if it were a mature segment that isn't dependent on government support or investment. As a whole, however, "space" is between steps one and two. There really is no mature, self-sustaining "space industry." Too much still needs to happen. As a result, there aren't human beings "living and working in space on the eve of the 21st century" as NASA once touted for its goal. At best, we make brief forays into this new environment, maybe establish a primitive camp or two, and strive to learn more about it. We have a long way to go. We'll get to our goal of exploring and exploiting space on a routine basis if we consciously apply the three-step process to space. Here's what we need to do: First, we need to assess where we are in broad areas that characterize "going to space" -- transportation, structures, life support, power, etc. This is probably best done by the government with industry involvement. The output of this assessment will be an investment plan -- one that addresses the greatest risks and takes us to step two. Next, we need to spend taxpayers' dollars to reduce those risks to the point that private industry and investors will step up to the remaining share. This translates to investment in both technology development and use of the resulting capabilities to demonstrate its usefulness and low risk. Finally, we need to keep control of much of the basic infrastructure in government hands. This must be done for two reasons. The obvious one is public safety. Operating spacecraft, from launch to mission end, is a hazardous business. Fuels that are highly explosive, toxic materials, and high risks make for a dangerous business. The impact of a Chinese Long March 2 rocket into a village near the launch site and the estimated death toll of over 2,000 people highlights just how much we still don't know -- or can't do. A less obvious reason is that many missions performed in space are, in fact, public utilities. The NavStar Global Positioning System -- GPS -- is a clear example of this. Originally intended to guide cruise missiles to their targets, GPS is now far more widely used in civilian life than in the military. Even farm tractors use GPS! Public utilities must stay under some form of public control in order to ensure their availability to the entire population, not just an elite few. The ultimate end-state for space is, I believe, a situation where private industry does the vast majority of the exploiting, institutions like universities, NASA, and the National Science Foundation do the exploring, and the critical underlying infrastructure is at least regulated and, in some cases, operated by the federal government. The situation would resemble aviation in the late 20th century. This is a viable, self-sustaining state that maximizes innovation, discovery, and personal freedom while minimizing the avoidable risks. If the rate of progress of commercial aviation is any indicator, allowing for the potentially quicker development times now, we could reach this state by 2050. That may seem quite a long time, but it's really only 52 years from now. If one moves 52 years from 1925, when government did most of the work in aviation and the industry was tiny, one arrives at 1977 - certainly a time when commercial aviation was viable and self-sustaining. An Activist's Perspective This vision will require some disciplined investment, both publicly and privately. It will require a political will to stay the course for the long term. It will require broad-based public support over decades. In short, it will require us to address the US space program in an entirely new way, with a new set of stated objectives, and with a commitment rarely seen in American politics. We can do this. Will we? That, of course, remains to be seen. There are plenty of private organizations that would like to see this course of events unfold, perhaps more quickly or in a different sequence, but arriving at the same end state. Over the past couple of decades, groups like the National Space Society, the Planetary Society, and the L-5 Society, to name just a few, have striven to influence both the public's perception and public policy to these ends. Apparently, their impact is minimal because of the perceived low level of public and Congressional interest in exploring and exploiting space. The real job that lies ahead for space activists is to promote the entire agenda, not just a particular portion of it. One reason for the lack of success of many of these groups is that they are perceived as single-interest groups. They support specific projects -- SSTO, L-5 colonies, Return to the Moon, Mars Direct -- the unfamiliarity of some of these names indicates the problem. Certainly there are some investments that should precede others, but the key focus ought to be in general public awareness. Building public awareness and support for space can be translated into action for space, both politically and in business. The focus for space activists now is where the focus for aviation societies (they really did exist!) was in the 1910s and 1920s - advocacy of the entire agenda of creating a space-faring civilization. Convince the public that an American (or Canadian or French or . . .) goal is truly the conquest and settlement of the Solar System and that there is a believable timetable and the rest will follow. Lest you think I am overly optimistic in my view, recall what the environmental movement has done in the past twenty years. >From a random collection of radicals, extremists, and well-meaning but unsophisticated common citizens, the United States grew a strong environmental civic ethic, a veritable raft of laws that are enforced nationwide, and the rescue from extinction of several species scientists once thought headed for history. We can do this for space but only if we can forge a nation-wide coalition of space activists that agree both on the basic goal and the strategy to get there. The object of these articles has not been to build the political base for space activism -- that is best left to those who know politics best. The object is to buttress your knowledge of what is and is not and what we can do. Without clear understanding of our history, our rationale, and our goal, we won't go to space. Someone else will -- and they might not even want to sell us a ticket. We can avoid this future. We must. So keep a clear head, keep your eyes on the grand goal and tell everyone you meet: We're going out! Lead, follow, or get out of the way! Timothy K. Roberts is a lieutenant colonel in the U.S. Air Force, currently stationed at Cheyenne Mountain Operations Center where he is both a Space Control Center Commander and the Deputy Chief of Training. He has served in both Air Force Space Command and United States Space Command headquarters working on next-generation spacelifters and space surveillance. *** Book Reviews *** by Jeff Foust Comets Friend and Foe Comets: Creators and Destroyers by David H. Levy Touchstone, 1998 softcover, 256 pp., illus. ISBN 0-684-85255-1 US$12/C$17 The 1990s may be remembered as the decade of the comet. In this deacde we've witnessed two briliant naked-eye comets, Hyakutake and Hale-Bopp, and saw fragments of another comet, Shoemaker-Levy 9, pummel the planet Jupiter. Upcoming spacecraft missions, like Stardust, will yield more information about comtes in the coming years. It's in this context that astronomer David Levy provides us with a broadbased introduction to comets in "Comets: Creators and Destroyers" Comets, Levy reminds us, have helped the formation of life on Earth by supplying the young planets with volatiles like water and perhaps even amino acids and more complex chemicals. Comets have also wiped out much of the life they helped to start through cataclysmic impacts, such as the Chicxulub impact 65 million years ago. Long before their roles in creating and destroying life on Earth were understood, humans treated comets as omens, sometimes good, often bad. Levy's book provides a general introduction to comets, both from a scientific standpoint (their role in shaping life on Earth) and a historical one (how we have interpreted and understood comets through the ages.) He does stray from this topic later in the book, devoting a couple chapters to whether Mars, Europa, or other worlds in our solar system and beyond could support life -- a digression that's not uncommon in astronomy books these days, given in increasing interest in the subject. If you or someone you know is looking for a general introduction to comets that is quite readable and not overly technical, Levy's "Comets" is a good choice. Filling in the Drake Equation Other Worlds: The Search for Life in the Universe by Michael D. Lemonick Simon and Schuster, 1998 hardcover, 272pp., illus. ISBN 0-684-83294-1 US$25/C$35 Astronomy has been filled with a number of hot topics in recent years, including the search for, and discovery of, planets around other stars; evidence that primitive life once existed on Mars; the increasing likelihood of an ocean of liquid water under Europa's ice surface; and more. On the surface these topics may seem unrelated, but Michael Lemonick, a senior science writer at Time magazine, shows in "Other Worlds" that they are deeply connected as different factors in the search for life in the universe. Lemonick unifies these different fields of research through the Drake Equation: a series of factors put together by astronomer and SETI advicate Frank Drake nearly forty years ago, which attempts to estimate the number of intelligent species in the galaxy with whom we could communicate. Since Drake drafted this equation, the numbers people have plugged into it have been nothing more than wild guesses that reflect personal philosophies as much as hard science. What research like Mars life and extrasolar planets do, Lemonick notes, is help us nail down some of these Drake Equation values we have been guessing at, such as the fraction of stars that have planets and the fraction of planets that can support life. He takes us behind the scenes on several research projects, including the work of planet hunters Geoff Marcy and Paul Butler, SETI researchers Seth Shostak and Jill Tarter, and the team that found evidence of life in Martian meteorite ALH 84001. While perhaps prone to a bit of hyperbole (it would be tough to argue that the Drake equation is the second most important equation of the century after E=mc^2, given all the significant work in quantum mechanics and other fields), Lemonick has created a readable, enjoyable account of work in these areas in "Other Worlds". Those new to the field will find his descriptions of research enlightening; those familiar with the work will enjoy his personal accounts of the scientists. *** NSS News *** Boston NSS Upcoming Events Saturday, July 11, 11am-4pm Boston NSS Annual Picnic 102 Sanborn Lane, Reading, Mass. Come enjoy food, and a swimming pool, nerf rockets, badminton, other lawn games and children's games. And, find out what other NSS chapter members do outside the regular meetings. We may take a walk in the local town forest after 2 pm. Bring your children. Also, bring swimming suit, snacks, lunch food to share, and games. We will provide: barbeque grill, swimming pool, plates, cups. Please RSVP, leave message for Bruce Mackenzie, (617)258-2828 (10 am - 6 pm) or (781)944-7027 (8 - 9 pm) or BMackenzie@draper.com. Directions: Take I-93 or I-95 (rt. 128) to their interchange on the north side of Boston; Take I-93 4 miles north to the second exit, labeled "Concord St.", at the end of the exit ramp, reset your 'trip odometer' to zero, Turn right, going east on Concord St. at a mileage reading of 1.25, there is a stop sign, bear right onto Park St. take the next right turn, at mileage 1.5, onto Mill St. (the stop light is too far) immediately after "Old Mill Village" on the right, at mileage 2.0, turn right on Sanborn Lane. Continue SLOWLY, past the signs say "DO NOT ENTER", "NO TRESPASSING", etc. At mileage 2.4, our house is on your left. A white house with A-frame, set lower and way from the road. Try to park in driveway or on dirt along left side of driveway. Tuesday, July 14, 7:30pm "The Lunar-Mars Life Support Test Project Phase III 90-day Test: The Crew Perspective" Vickie Kloeris, John Lewis, and Laura Supra The Lunar Mars Life Support Project Phase III test was a 91 day test of air and water recycling systems conducted at the Johnson Space Center from Sept. 19, 1997 to Dec. 19, 1997. Vickie Kloeris of the Johnson Space Center, John Lewis of Lockheed Martin Corporation, and Laura Supra of AlliedSignal Aerospace will be giving this presentation, and will describe life inside the chamber through video and slides. Boston NSS June Lecture Summary by Lynn Olson Can a small group build a launch vehicle to launch a small spacecraft into LEO (Low Earth Orbit)? Rainier Anacker was inspired to investigate this question by the February talk of Supriya Chakrabarti on the building of a satellite by students and young investigators at Boston University. Anacker wondered what it would take to build a launch vehicle capable of launching such a small satellite. At the June meeting of the Boston Chapter of the National Space Society he walked the audience through some of the design issues. The first task is to determine what "delta v" or velocity change the rocket must deliver. A spacecraft in LEO has a velocity of ~7.8 kilometers per second (km/s). After adding in velocity losses due to gravity and atmospheric drag and subtracting the boost given by the earth's rotation, a typical rocket will require 9.2 km/s (20,500 mph) to boost a satellite in to orbit. Given this velocity requirement, the rocket equation can be used to calculate other rocket parameters. The rocket equation says that the mass ratio (ratio of initial mass to final mass) is equal to the exponential of the ratio of the velocity requirement (9.2 km/s) to the rocket exhaust velocity. The final mass is the payload plus inert mass. Inert mass includes tanks, engines, guidance electronics, etc. The initial mass is the final mass plus the propellant. Low inert mass and high exhaust velocity are necessary to achieve high rocket performance. Exhaust velocity is usually quoted as specific impulse, which is the number of seconds a pound of rocket propellant can produce a pound of thrust, because it is easier to measure. Specific impulse and exhaust velocity are directly proportional to each other. Anacker first analyzed an SSTO (Single Stage To Orbit) launcher with a 100 kg payload. This turned out to be very tough. Using the rocket equation, he showed that either the initial mass had to be enormous or "unobtainium" must be used to reduce the inert mass, even using high performance hydrogen/oxygen rocket engines with average specific impulse of 400 or more seconds. This is currently a hot topic of research with the NASA/Lockheed Martin X-33 effort, but not realistic for a small university or other group. He then presented a two stage rocket using gasoline and nitric acid which could launch a small satellite with fairly low specific impulse (260, 290 seconds for first, second stages) and inert fraction within current state of the art. No advances would be required. The actual cost would depend on R&D, hardware, operations, and propellant costs, but the project appears to be doable on a relatively small scale. Universities are very interested in a small satellite launcher such as Anacker proposes. The Universities Space Research Association was the advocate of NASA's Bantam Launch Technologies program, which aims to put a 100 kilogram satellite in orbit for $1.5M. NASA administrator Dan Goldin pledged to meet this goal recently, even though initial studies awarded to four companies did not meet the cost target and follow up funds were redirected. (Space News, June 8-14, 1998). Philadelphia Area Space Alliance News by Jay Haines PASA regular business luncheon/formal meeting from 1-3 pm the 3rd Saturday of every month at Liberty One food court, 16th & Market. Go toward the windows, then to the left. Public parking in Liberty on 17th St. Scheduled PASA activities: regular monthly meetings: July 18th (special location), Aug. 15th, Sept. 19th. Other activities: Nov. 13th-15th: Philcon. Call Earl for details. June Meeting Report: Oscar Harris gave the Education report, covering the timetable for the Carver Science Fair for 1998-99 at Temple Univ. and the Academy of Natural Sciences, and our plans to judge and present an award for space-oriented projects. Earl Bennett mentioned a local middle-school project on the Mars rover, a 5/98 NASA Tech Briefs article on a Get Away Special project by the U Michigan SEDS group, and a Summer 98 Robotics World article on the For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology (FIRST) National Competition at WDW Epcot in April, and a NJ ex-astronaut who is associated with it. Hank Smith gave the Science Fiction report, covering the Aug. 5th-9th Bucconeer 56th Annual World Science Fiction Convention in Baltimore, the Nov. 13th- 15th Philadelphia Science Fiction Convention, and the Philadelphia 2001 World Science Fiction Convention bid. Mitch Gordon gave the NSS report, covering the 5-6/98 Ad Astra articles on space tourism, and the Public Relations report, covering his progress on next Spring's FutureFest, and discussions with Derrick Pitts of the Franklin Institute on plans for celebrating the 1999 30th anniversary of the lunar landing. Michelle Baker mentioned that we had received the Lockheed- Martin VentureStar poster. Michelle also gave the new ProSpace report, covering the Space Commercialization Act which is now in the Senate, having passed the House. Oscar reported on the 5/98 Architectural Record article by Robert Zubrin, 'Building on Mars and living off the land.' Jay Haines reported on our Web site (28 accesses from 5/21 to 6/20). Earl gave the Technology report, covering a 6/98 Photonic Spectrum article on measuring astronauts' motion sickness, a 6/98 Industrial Physicist article on using ion engines on geostationary satellites to save 400Kg of launch weight in fuel, and using aerogel to contain the heat of the ion engines. Earl also covered a 7-8/98 Analog Science Fiction and Fact Alternate View article by Jeffery Kooistra, 'The Golden Age of Rocketry,' wherein he gives an appreciation for G. Harry Stein. Our next meeting will be an outing to Atlantic City NJ: we meet on Sat., 7/18 at 6 p.m. at the Ocean One Mall food area on the 3rd floor. Go toward the windows, then to the right. Park at the Trump Plaza and walk north on the boardwalk to Ocean One. *** Regular Features *** Jonathan's Space Report No. 364 by Jonathan McDowell [Ed. Note: Go to http://hea-www.harvard.edu/QEDT/jcm/space/jsr/jsr.html for back issues and other information about Jonathan's Space Report.] Shuttle and Mir The next Shuttle mission is STS-95, in October. On the Mir space station complex, the Progress M-39 cargo ship is docked to the Kvant module, and the Soyuz TM-27 transport is docked to the PKhO transfer module on the Mir base compartment. The EO-25 mission crew of Talgat Musabaev and Nikolai Budarin are scheduled to be replaced in August by EO-26 crew Gennadiy Padalka and Sergey Avdeev. Recent Launches HGS-1, following a second lunar flyby on Jun 6, successfully reached inclined geosynchronous orbit and is now drifting over the Pacific at 0.5 degree per day. On Jun 19 it was over 152W in a 35681 x 35963 km x 8.7 deg orbit. The Hughes team deserve to be congratulated on this spectacular and innovative rescue mission. Intelsat 805 was launched by an Atlas 2AS on Jun 18 into a standard geostationary transfer orbit. Intelsat 805 is an LM7000 series satellite built by Lockheed Martin/East Windsor. Launch mass is 3520 kg; the satellite has 28 C-band and 3 Ku-band transponders, and will initially serve the Atlantic Ocean region for INTELSAT. Two Minuteman III missiles were launched from Vandenberg to Kwajalein Atoll on Jun 24, one from silo LF-09 and the second from LF-10. Each carried three re-entry vehicles. Erratum: Thor 3 launch date was Jun 10, not Jun 11. Table of Recent Launches Date UT Name Launch Vehicle Site Mission INTL. DES. May 2 0916 Iridium 69 CZ-2C/SD Taiyuan Comsat 26A Iridium 71 Comsat 26B May 7 0853 Kosmos-2351 Molniya-M Plesetsk Early Warn 27A May 7 2345 Echostar 4 Proton-K/DM3 Baykonur Comsat 28A May 9 0138 USA 139 Titan Centaur Canaveral SLC40 Sigint 29A May 13 1552 NOAA 15 Titan 2 Vandenberg SLC4W Weather 30A May 14 2212 Progress M-39 Soyuz-U Baykonur LC1 Cargo 31A May 17 2116 Iridium 70) Delta 7920 Vandenberg SLC2W Comsat 32A Iridium 72) Comsat 32B Iridium 73) Comsat 32C Iridium 74) Comsat 32D Iridium 75) Comsat 32E May 30 1000 Zhongwei 1 CZ-3B Xichang Comsat 33A Jun 2 2206 Discovery ) Shuttle Kennedy LC39A Spaceship 34A Spacehab ) Jun 10 0035 Thor 3 Delta 7925 Canaveral LC17A Comsat 35A Jun 15 2258 Kosmos-2352 ) Tsiklon-3 Plesetsk LC32 Comsat 36A Kosmos-2353 ) Comsat 36B Kosmos-2354 ) Comsat 36C Kosmos-2355 ) Comsat 36D Kosmos-2356 ) Comsat 36E Kosmos-2357 ) Comsat 36F Jun 18 2248 Intelsat 805 Atlas 2AS Canaveral LC36A Comsat 37A Current Shuttle Processing Status __________________________________ Orbiters Location Mission Launch Due OV-102 Columbia OPF Bay 3 STS-93 Unknown OV-103 Discovery OPF Bay 2 STS-95 Oct 29 OV-104 Atlantis Palmdale OMDP OV-105 Endeavour OPF Bay 1 STS-88 Unknown MLP/SRB/ET/OV stacks MLP1/ MLP2/ MLP3/ Space Calendar by Ron Baalke [Ed. Note: visit http://newproducts.jpl.nasa.gov/calendar/ for the complete calendar] July 1998 Jul ?? - Celestis-03 Pegasus XL Launch * Jul ?? - ORBCOMM-2 Pegasus XL Launch * Jul ?? - Resurs Zenit Launch (Russia) Jul 01 - Asteroid 6748 (1995 UV30) Closest Approach to Earth (1.066 AU) * Jul 04 - Planet B M-5 Launch (Japan Mars Mission) Jul 04 - Earth at Aphelion (1.017 AU From Sun) Jul 04 - Henrietta Leavitt's 130th Birthday (1868) Jul 05 - Asteroid 4953 (1990 MU) Closest Approach to Earth (0.615 AU) Jul 05 - Asteroid 1992 JB Closest Approach to Earth (0.872 AU) Jul 06 - Asteroid 5672 Libby Closest Approach To Earth (1.477 AU) Jul 06 - Asteroid 5657 (1936 QE1) Closest Approach To Earth (1.569 AU) Jul 09 - Asteroid 1862 Apollo Near-Earth Flyby (0.339 AU) Jul 09 - Pluto Occults P42 (14.7 Magnitude Star) Jul 10 - Asteroid 7 Iris at Opposition (8.6 Magnitude) Jul 12 - Comet Arend-Rigaux Perihelion (1.371 AU) Jul 12 - Asteroid 1998 KM3 Near-Earth Flyby (0.253 AU) Jul 12 - 10th Anniversary (1988), Phobos 2 Launch (Soviet Mars Orbiter) * Jul 14 - Sinosat 1 Long March 3B Launch Jul 14 - Moon Occults Jupiter Jul 15 - Asteroid 1993 PB Closest Approach to Earth (0.590 AU) Jul 15 - Asteroid 3551 Verenia Closest Approach to Earth (0.794 AU) Jul 15 - Asteroid 6708 Bobbievaile Closest Approach To Earth (1.002 AU) Jul 16 - GPS IIR-3 Delta 2 Launch Jul 16 - Comet Arend-Rigaux Closest Approach to Earth (2.354 AU) Jul 16 - Asteroid 4973 Showa Closest Approach To Earth (2.726 AU) Jul 17 - Mercury at Greatest Eastern Elongation (27 Degrees) * Jul 17 - Comet C/1998 K5 (LINEAR) Perihelion (0.964 AU) Jul 17 - Asteroid 432 Pythia at Opposition (10.9 Magnitude) Jul 17 - Comet Russell 3 Closest Approach to Earth (1.941 AU) Jul 18 - Galileo, Orbital Trim Maneuver #50 (OTM-50) Jul 18 - Asteroid 6460 Bassano Closest Approach To Earth (1.481 AU) Jul 18 - Asteroid 6172 Prokofeana Closest Approach To Earth (1.888 AU) Jul 19 - Asteroid 6232 1985 SJ3 Closest Approach To Earth (0.963 AU) Jul 19 - Asteroid 4295 Wisse Closest Approach To Earth (1.165 AU) Jul 19 - Asteroid 6022 Jyuro Closest Approach To Earth (1.319 AU) * Jul 20 - Iridium Long March 2C/SD Launch Jul 20 - Asteroid 43 Ariadne at Opposition (9.1 Magnitude) Jul 20 - Comet Shoemaker 1 Closest Approach to Earth (1.897 AU) Jul 21 - Galileo, Europa 16 Flyby Jul 21 - Asteroid 59 Elpis Occults TAC -106880 (11.1 Magnitude) Jul 21 - Asteroid 4644 Oumu Closest Approach To Earth (1.375 AU) Jul 21 - 25th Anniversary (1973), Mars 4 Launch (USSR Mars Flyby Mission) Jul 23 - Neptune at Opposition Jul 23 - Asteroid 6682 (1973 ST3) Closest Approach To Earth (1.484 AU) Jul 25 - Galileo, Orbital Trim Maneuver #51 (OTM-51) Jul 25 - DOD US Air Force Titan 4 Launch Jul 25 - Asteroid 4021 Dancey Closest Approach To Earth (1.143 AU) Jul 25 - Asteroid 3553 Mera Closest Approach To Earth (1.407 AU) Jul 25 - 25th Anniversary (1973), Mars 5 Launch (USSR Mars Orbiter Mission) Jul 26 - Iridium 10 Delta 2 Launch * Jul 26 - Asteroid 1998 ME3 Near-Earth Flyby (0.120 AU) Jul 26 - Asteroid 6742 Biandepei Closest Approach To Earth (1.052 AU) Jul 26 - 35th Anniversary (1963), Syncom 2 Launch, 1st Geosynchronous Satellite * Jul 27 - Kuiper Belt Object 1998 KY61 At Opposition (44.803 AU - 24.1 Magnitude) Jul 28 - 25th Anniversary (1973), Skylab-3 Launch Jul 29 - South Delta-Aquarids Meteor Shower Peak Jul 29 - Asteroid 1998 HL3 Near-Earth Flyby (0.246 AU) ================================== This is the current issue of "SpaceViews" (tm), published by the Boston Chapter, National Space Society (NSS), distributed in electronic form. It is also sent as a 8 to 12 page double column newsletter via US Mail. You may re-distribute this electronically for non-profit use as long as the entire contents (including this notice) are intact, and you send us the names of all recipients (include us in your distribution list). MAILING LIST INFORMATION: Subscribing and Unsubscribing: To stop receiving the large monthly 'SpaceViews' newsletter, send this e-mail message: To: MajorDomo@nss.org Subject: anything UNsubscribe SpaceViews To receive electronic copies of this SpaceViews newsletter and/or other information about space and NSS, send an e-mail message similar to the following. This example subscribes you to 4 separate mailing lists which are described below. Of course, fill in your own Internet address where is says "YourAddress@StateU.edu" and your real name inside the parenthesis. Try to send it from you own account on your own computer, so that the message appears to be from you. 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Excerpts cannot be used, except for reviews and criticisms, without written permission of NSS, Boston Chapter. (We will try to respond by e-mail within four business days.) -Jeff Foust (editor, jeff@spaceviews.com), -Bruce Mackenzie (email distribution, bam@draper.com) -Roxanne Warniers (mailings, rwarnier@colybrand.com) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ____ | "SpaceViews" (tm) -by Boston Chapter // \ // | of the National Space Society (NSS) // (O) // | Dedicated to the establishment // \___// | of a spacefaring civilization. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- President: Elaine Mullen Board of Directors: Michael Burch Vice President: Larry Klaes Jeff Foust Secretary: Lynn Olson Bruce Mackenzie Treasurer: Roxanne Warniers John Malloy From VM Mon Jul 13 09:34:54 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2595" "Sat" "11" "July" "1998" "12:33:40" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "67" "starship-design: Fwd: Link to SSI" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2595 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22833 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 09:34:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA22827 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 09:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id KRKEa20768; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 12:33:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <99fb5b22.35a793e6@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_900174821_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: kelly_starks@udlp.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Fwd: Link to SSI Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 12:33:40 EDT This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_900174821_boundary Content-ID: <0_900174821@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII --part0_900174821_boundary Content-ID: <0_900174821@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from relay13.mx.aol.com (relay13.mail.aol.com [172.31.109.13]) by air19.mail.aol.com (v45.13) with SMTP; Tue, 07 Jul 1998 09:21:43 -0400 Received: from jester.ti.com (jester.ti.com [192.94.94.1]) by relay13.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id JAA28951 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from alfred.itg.ti.com ([157.170.188.38]) by jester.ti.com (8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA08971; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 08:18:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dmis4.itg.ti.com (dmis4.itg.ti.com [158.218.98.3]) by alfred.itg.ti.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA29489; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 08:17:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ti (cna0667831.mo.ti.com [158.218.96.242]) by dmis4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v2,0,0,0) with SMTP id GLNEBWAE; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 08:29:24 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) X-Mailer: BeyondMail for Windows/Professional 2.3 To: admin@iaaa.org, admin@ours.ch, archimedes@permanent.com, astra@spaceart.net, behar@mensa.usc.edu, BenHuset@SkyPoint.com, bfreed@clr.com, dodgest@prodigy.net, e.tan@ucl.ac.uk, gjyates@mersinet.co.uk, globus@nas.nasa.gov, jhojnicki@lerc.nasa.gov, KellySt@aol.com, kerslake@sees.bangor.ac.uk, md87-rso@nada.kth.se, nv91-asa@nada.kth.se, potter@acf2.NYU.EDU, sa@astronist.demon.co.uk, spacereport@treknet.net, staff@novaspace.com, trishan@interpac.net, webmaster@l5-development.com, webmaster@snark.org, www@aero.und.edu From: Mike Combs Subject: Link to SSI Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 08:12:57 -0700 X-BeyondMail-Priority: 1 Message-Id: Conversation-Id: Reply-To: Mike Combs Cc: Bettie@ssi.org, ssi@ssi.org X-Receipt-From-Agent: true Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit An Internet search has determined that you have a link on your webpage to the Space Studies Institute (SSI) via an older URL which is no longer functional. SSI now has its own domain name. Please change your link to the following URL: http://www.ssi.org/ Thanks and Regards, Mike Combs SSI Webmaster --part0_900174821_boundary-- From VM Mon Jul 13 09:34:54 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["185" "Sat" "11" "July" "1998" "16:13:52" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "9" "starship-design: Enterprize sighted by Hubble ;)" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 185 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA02533 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 13:14:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA02528 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 13:14:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 2ANAa02269 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:13:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3a73c273.35a7c781@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Enterprize sighted by Hubble ;) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:13:52 EDT In case the face on Mars wasn't bad enough. The Hubble has now given us conclusive proof in the existence of Star Trek. > >http://smart.net/~badastro/bitesize/startrek.html > Kelly From VM Mon Jul 20 09:49:20 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["199" "Mon" "20" "July" "1998" "00:07:16" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "13" "starship-design: Re: brochure" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 199 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA08777 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:08:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA08771 for ; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:08:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id OZEYa29489; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 00:07:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <677c178c.35b2c275@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: deuard@ix.netcom.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: brochure Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 00:07:16 EDT In a message dated 7/18/98 2:39:06 PM, you wrote: >Kelly, > >The brochure link didn't work for me on the LIT page. > >deuard worthen I'll forward the problem to the group for maintenence. Kelly From VM Fri Jul 24 14:21:29 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["36696" "Tue" "21" "July" "1998" "18:16:59" "-0500" "L. Clayton Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "848" "starship-design: FW: SpaceViews Update -- 1998 July 15" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 36696 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16401 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA16349 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from destin.gulfnet.com.gulfnet.com (p218.gnt.com [204.49.89.218]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id PAA24156 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 15:46:08 -0500 Message-ID: <000001bdb744$02dc67e0$da5931cc@destin.gulfnet.com.gulfnet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Clayton Parker" From: "L. Clayton Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: starship-design: FW: SpaceViews Update -- 1998 July 15 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:16:59 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: SpaceViews-approval@nss.org [mailto:SpaceViews-approval@nss.org] Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 1998 8:32 AM To: undisclosed-recipients:; Subject: SpaceViews Update -- 1998 July 15 S P A C E V I E W S U P D A T E 1998 July 15 http://www.spaceviews.com/1998/0715/ *** Top Stories *** Planet-B Launched on Mars Mission Researchers Find Evidence Against Martian Nanofossils Astronomers Discover Nearby Developing Solar System Baikonur Problems Delay Soyuz Launch *** Technology *** Japanese Satellites Test Docking Techniques AXAF Completes Environmental Tests Zenit, Sub-Based Missile Launch Satellites *** Policy *** Senate Vote Supports Space Station NASA Creates Near-Earth Object Office Movie Producers Challenged to Match NEO Grant *** Science *** Io Volcanoes Hottest in Solar System New Type of Near-Earth Asteroids Discovered European Astronomers Discover Another Extrasolar Planet *** CyberSpace *** The Space Weather Bureau Orbit-on-Web The Moon Race Homepage Wired Collections: Space Exploration *** Space Capsules *** SpaceViews Event Horizon Other News Editor's Note: We apologize for the delay mailing this issue. Problems with the mailing list software at ARI, the company that hosts the list, caused the delays. We are looking into solutions to prevent this from happening again. Please feel free to send any comments, concerns, suggestions, or question to jeff@spaceviews.com. Our next issue will be published August 1. *** Top Stories *** Planet-B Launched on Mars Mission A rocket carrying the Planet-B spacecraft, Japan's first Mars mission, lifted off early Saturday, July 4, on the first anniversary of the landing of the American Mars Pathfinder spacecraft. The M-5 rocket launched from the Kagoshima Space Center on the island of Kyushu in the predawn hours Saturday (late afternoon Friday EDT). The booster successfully placed Planet-B, renamed Nozomi ("Hope") after launch, into Earth orbit. Because the M-5 rocket is not powerful enough to place Nozomi on a direct trajectory to Mars, the spacecraft will spend the next several months in an elliptical Earth orbit. Two lunar flybys will provide the final kick needed to reach Mars. Once Nozomi arrives at Mars in October 1999, it will enter an elliptical orbit around the planet. A suite of 14 instruments from five nations, including the United States, will study the planet's upper atmosphere and ionosphere. When close to Mars, the spacecraft will carry out studies of the lower atmosphere and surface of the planet, and study the interaction of the atmosphere with the solar wind in more distant portions of its orbit. The interaction of the outer atmosphere with the solar wind is of particular interest to scientists since Mars, unlike the Earth, lacks a magnetic field to shield the atmosphere from the solar wind's charged particles. The solar wind may have played a key role in stripping gas from the Martian atmosphere, and data collected by Planet-B may provide clues to this process. The United States is contributing a neutral mass spectrometer (NMS) to the Planet-B mission. "The Neutral Mass Spectrometer will enable us to measure the chemical composition of the upper atmosphere of Mars on a global scale, which has never been done before," said Dr. Hasso B. Niemann, the NMS principal investigator at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center. Nozomi was launched almost exactly one year after Mars Pathfinder landed on the Red Planet. Japanese officials said the launch date for Nozomi was chosen as a way of honoring the American lander's mission. Two new American missions to Mars are scheduled for launch in the next six months. The Mars Climate Orbiter will launch in December to study Martian meteorology from orbit, while the Mars Polar Lander will lift off in January to land in the unique layered terrain near the Martian south pole. Researchers Find Evidence Against Martian Nanofossils A team of scientists reported Monday, July 6 that they had found new evidence which disproves claims that worm-like features seen in the Martian meteorite ALH 84001 are tiny "nanofossils" left behind by ancient Martian life. The research, led by John Bradley of Georgia Tech, Hap McSween of the University of Tennessee, and Ralph Harvey of Case-Western Reserve University, found that the fossil-like features seen in the meteorite were formed by mineralogical processes unrelated to life and at potentially very high temperatures. The scientists found that magnetite crystals seen in the meteorite were formed in the surrounding carbonates by epitaxy, or the ordered growth of one mineral atop another. Such formation requires temperatures of at least 120 degrees Celsius (248 degrees Fahrenheit), which would all but eliminate the possibility that fossilized Martian life exists in the meteorite. The crystals seen appeared free of defects, which the scientists noted is more representative of high-temperature growth than crystals grown at lower temperatures. Their research, to be published in the July issue of the journal Meteoritics and Planetary Science, is the third paper by the team that has addressed the issue of whether the meteorite shows evidence of Martian life, as originally claimed by a team of Johnson Space Center (JSC) and other scientists in August 1996. "These three papers in combination basically invalidate much of their (JSC's) evidence," Bradley, an adjunct professor at Georgia Tech and executive director of the microscopy firm MVA Inc., said. The first paper reported that the magnetite crystals seen inside the claimed fossils were straight whiskers, not "daisy chains" as would be expected inside fossils. A second paper claimed the fossils themselves only resemble terrestrial fossils at certain viewing angles; at other angles they resembled inorganic scales or ledges. Bradley was strongly critical of the claims of the original JSC team. "Early skepticism has evolved into international consensus among meteoriticists and planetary scientists, with the exception of the JSC team, that this rock does not contain Martian nanofossils," he said. "I do not know of a single other individual who believes it at this point." Still, he does not expect the debate about ALH 84001 to end any time soon. "Unless the JSC team concedes, the debate will never die," he said. Astronomers Discover Nearby Developing Solar System An international team of astronomers reported Wednesday, July 8, that they had found evidence of a solar system forming around the nearby star Epsilon Eridani. The astronomers used the James Clerk Maxwell Telescope on Mauna Kea, Hawaii, to find a ring of dust around the star that looks "strikingly similar" to our solar system's own Kuiper Belt of icy bodies, according to one astronomer. "What we see looks just like the comet belt on the outskirts of our Solar System, only younger," said Jane Greaves of the Joint Astronomy Centre in Hawaii. "It's the first time we've seen anything like this around a star similar to our Sun." Epsilon Eridani is a K2-class star -- slightly cooler than the Sun and one-third as bright -- located 10.7 light years away. The star is one of the closest Sun-like stars, but is believed to be much younger than the Sun. The images, obtained at submillimeter wavelengths, indicate that the solar system is in the process of forming planets. "This star system is a strong candidate for planets, but if there are planets, it's unlikely there could be life yet," Greaves said. "When the Earth was this young, it was still being very heavily bombarded by comets and other debris." Addition evidence for planet formation around the star is the existence of a bright spot in the ring of dust imaged by the astronomers. "There may be a planet stirring up the dust in the ring and causing the bright spot," said Bill Dent of the Royal Observatory, Edinburgh, "or it could be the remnants of a massive collision between comets." A region near the star itself that appears partially free of dust is additional evidence for planet formation, astronomers said. Planets would be expected to absorb or otherwise clear out dust in the regions where they form. The existence of a solar system forming around a nearby Sun-like star may mean solar systems are quite common. "The implication is that if there is one system similar to ours at such a close star, presumably there are many others," Benjamin Zuckerman of UCLA said. "In the search for life elsewhere in the universe, we have never known where to look before. Now, we are closing in on the right candidates in the search for life." The same astronomers discovered dust disks earlier this year around the more distant and less Sun-like stars Vega and Formalhaut. Another dust disk was seen around the star HR 4796 at around the same time. The Epsilon Eridani discovery was announced at the "Protostars and Planets" conference in Santa Barbara, California. The work has been submitted for publication in Astrophysical Journal Letters. Baikonur Problems Delay Soyuz Launch A lack of electricity and running water at the Baikonur Cosmodrome, Russia's primary launch site, will delay next month's Soyuz launch of a Mir replacement crew by at least 10 days, Russian officials reported Wednesday, July 8. A three-person crew, including a former aide to Russian president Boris Yeltsin, was scheduled to lift off August 3 in Soyuz TM-28 to dock with Mir. However, a lack of electricity and water for the last two weeks at Baikonur, Kazakhstan, the Soyuz launch site, has forced officials to move the launch date back to August 13. Electricity and water were cut to Baikonur because of unpaid bills, a problem stemming from a lack of money allocated to Energia, the company that operates Mir for the Russian Space Agency, and part of Russia's larger financial woes. "People are preparing for the launch in terrible conditions, in temperatures of 37 degrees Celsius [99 degrees Fahrenheit], without light, without water, without money," said Energia president Yuri Semyonov told the Itar-Tass news agency. Power has been restored to Baikonur, Itar-Tass reported, but the two-week loss of power impacted launch preparations enough to force a launch delay. The launch cannot be delayed much longer. The Soyuz capsule currently docked to Mir, which brought current crew members Talgat Musabayev and Nikolai Budarin to the station, must return to Earth by late August as its systems are only guaranteed to function for that long. The Soyuz TM-28 will carry a relief crew of commander Gennady Padalka and engineer Sergei Avdeyev. Also flying on the Soyuz will be former presidential aide Nikolai Baturin. Baturin will investigate the status of the station and return with Budarin and Musabayev later in August. Energia threatened last month to shut down Mir as early as August if the Russian government did not pay the money it owed the corporation for operating Mir. On July 2 the Russian government agreed to provide Energia with 600 million rubles (US$100 million) to continue operating the station through mid-1999, at which time the station will be deorbited into the Pacific Ocean. *** Technology *** Japanese Satellites Test Docking Techniques A pair of Japanese satellites completed the first successful test of an unmanned, automated docking early Tuesday, July 7. The two sections of the Engineering Test Satellite VII (ETS-7) separated and moved two meters (6.6 feet) apart before docking together again at 7:30am Japanese time (6:30pm ET and 2230UT July 6). In the test, three grappling claws on the 410 kg (900 lbs.) target satellite, named Orihime, grabbed onto the 2,540 kg (5,590 lbs.) chaser satellite, named Hikoboshi. The test was the first time two unmanned spacecraft and undocked and redocked under remote control. Tests planned for later this year will try docking after the two spacecraft are separated by distances up to several kilometers. The technology is being tested with an eye for use on the International Space Station. Automated docking techniques would make it easier for unmanned cargo spacecraft to dock with the station. ETS-7 was launched last November 27, along with the Tropical Rainfall Measuring Mission, a joint NASA/NASDA (National Space Development Agency) mission. The names of the two ETS-7 spacecraft come from an old Japanese tale, where the princess Orihime and her lover Hikoboshi were allowed to meet only once a year, on July 7th. AXAF Completes Environmental Tests The Advanced X-Ray Astrophysics Facility (AXAF) satellite has completed all of its environmental tests, satellite builder TRW reported Wednesday, July 8, but a problem with one of the satellite's instruments was uncovered during the tests. AXAF spent a month in a thermal vacuum chamber at TRW's El Segundo, California, facility. The satellite was exposed to the vacuum of space and alternating periods of hot and cold temperatures to simulate the environment the satellite will be in after launch. Key subsystems and instruments were tested during the thermal vacuum test to ensure they worked as planned. Engineers also tested sending commands to the spacecraft from the AXAF Operations Control Center (OCC) in Cambridge, Massachusetts. It was during those tests that a mechanical problem was noticed in one of AXAF's instruments, the AXAF CCD Imaging Spectrometer (ACIS). TRW's AXAF program manager, Craig Staresinich, said the cause of the problem and repair plans are being investigated. "We believe that the repair can be made in parallel with upcoming electrical testing of the observatory with little or no impact to the delivery schedule," he said. He added that the discovery of the problem during the tests was a success, not a failure, since AXAF's highly elliptical orbit makes any on-orbit repairs by shuttle crews impossible, unlike the Hubble Space Telescope. "Discovering a problem now is a success. Discovering a problem later, after launch, would be a failure," he said. AXAF, originally planned for an August launch, was pushed back to December after delays in the assembly of the spacecraft were reported late last year. Launch of the spacecraft is now likely to take place no earlier than January, as the first space station assembly shuttle flight is now planned for December. Zenit, Sub-Based Missile Launch Satellites An oft-delayed Zenit booster and a missile launched from a Russian submarine successfully placed satellites from several nations into orbit in early July. A Zenit 2 rocket lifted off at 2:30am EDT (0630 UT) July 10 from Baikonur, Kazakhstan, carrying five satellites, including a Russian Resurs-0 remote sensing satellite and several small satellites from other nations, including Chile, Thailand, and Israel. The launch was originally planned for June 23 but was pushed back more than two weeks because of problems with the guidance system on the booster. The booster was taken off its launch pad for over a week while repairs to the system were completed. A last-minute failure in the system delayed a launch planned for July 8. The launch is the first for the Zenit since a May 1997 launch ended in an explosion shortly after liftoff. The Zenit has experienced other launch failures in the recent past as well. An SS-N-23 ballistic missile launched the Tubsat-N satellites from the Delfin-class submarine Novomoskovsk, submerged in the Barents Sea, at 7:15am Moscow time July 7 (0315 UT, 11:15pm ET July 6). The satellite successfully reached orbit, officials reported. Tubsat-N, built at the Technical University of Berlin, consists of two small satellites, together weighing less than 11.5 kg (25.3 lbs.). The larger Tubsat-N and smaller Tubsat-N1 were launched attached and are designed to separate once in orbit. The satellites contain a number of experiments, including tests of reaction wheel and star sensor performance. They are also designed to store and forward low data rate communications. The Russian Navy, which conducted the satellite launch, said it plans future commercial launches using its nuclear submarines as a way to raise money for the cash-strapped armed service. *** Policy *** Senate Vote Supports Space Station In a final rebuke to a longtime but retiring foe of the International Space Station, the Senate voted down by a 2-to-1 margin July 7 a measure that would have cut funding to the station. By a vote of 66 to 33, the Senate rejected an amendment to a NASA appropriations bill proposed by Sen. Dale Bumpers (D-AR) that would have canceled the station and placed the funding intended for it into veteran's health and low-rent housing projects. Bumpers, a longtime opponent of the space station who is retiring from the Senate at the end of the year, has introduced similar amendments for many years. All have failed in Senate votes. In support of his amendment, Bumpers cited recent studies from the GAO that claimed the total cost to build and operate the station would reach or exceed $100 billion. The annual operating cost of the station alone, he said, "will be enough to fund 6,000 researchers at NIH [National Institutes of Health] and universities across America for a year." "We are going to have six people on the space station doing what the National Research Council estimates to be 24 hours of research each day, at a cost at which we could hire 6,000 researchers on earth," he said. Supporters of the station, including Sen. John Glenn (D-OH), took issue with some of Bumpers's statements. "This $96 billion is a fictitious figure; $40 billion of that, by NASA estimates, includes shuttle costs that are going to go on anyway," Glenn said. Glenn, who, like Bumpers, is retiring after this year, said spending on programs like the station is necessary to make progress. "If we ever tried to solve all problems and to do everything we wanted to do before we made research, we would never have moved off the east coast." NASA Creates Near-Earth Object Office The Jet Propulsion Laboratory will host a new NASA office dedicated to detecting, tracking, and understanding potentially hazardous near-Earth objects (NEOs), NASA announced Tuesday, July 14. NASA's Near-Earth Object Program Office will focus on the goal of locating at least 90 percent of the estimated 2,000 asteroids and comets that approach the Earth and are larger than 1 kilometer (0.62 miles) in diameter, by the end of the next decade. "We determined that, in order to achieve our goals, we need a more formal focusing of our near-Earth object tracking efforts and related communications with the supporting research community," said Dr. B. Carl Pilcher, science director for solar system exploration at NASA headquarters. "Finding a majority of this population will require the efforts of researchers at several NASA centers, at universities and at observatories across the country, and will require the participation by the international astronomy community as well," said Dr. Donald Yeomans of JPL, an expert on asteroid and comet orbits who will head the new office. The new office will focus on coordinating efforts to detect NEOs as well as facilitating communications between astronomers and the public should a dangerous NEO be discovered. This second role for the NEO office is seen as a reaction to the fiasco surrounding the announcement in March that asteroid 1997 XF11 would pass dangerously close to the Earth in 2028. Later analyses of the data, combined with pre-discovery observations, eliminated any threat of a collision in 2028 within one day of the original announcement. In the months following the 1997 XF11 announcement, NASA has announced plans to more than double funding for NEO tracking projects, to around $3 million in 1999. NASA has also formed policy that requires NASA-funded astronomers -- most of the NEO community worldwide -- to better communicate any discoveries among themselves and NASA before going public. Movie Producers Challenged to Match NEO Grant Two private space organizations announced a $50,000 grant Wednesday, July 1, to support work to locate and track near-Earth objects (NEOs), and challenged the producers of two current Hollywood blockbusters to match the grant. The Space Frontier Founation (SFF) and the Foundation for the International Non-Governmental Development of Space (FINDS) announced the grant as a kickoff for a fundraising campaign to support NEO research and bring together top experts on the issue. The organizations alsom challenged the producers of the movies "Deep Impact" and "Armageddon" -- two summer blockbusters that depict comets and asteroids on collision courses with the Earth -- to match the grant. "The film industry has done an excellent job educating people about the very real threat NEOs pose to our civilization, and is making millions of dollars at the same time," said SFF president Rick Tumlinson. ""Meanwhile, there is very little money going to support the handful of heroic people doing the actual work of finding and tracking these potential Earth killers." "There are astronomers who cannot afford to turn on their telescopes," Tumlinson noted. "Hollywood is making a lot of money playing off of the fear -- now it's time for them to ante up." The grant will go towards a program called "The Watch" whose goal is to raise $1 million a year to support NEO research worldwide. The funds will be disbursed by an advisory council headed by John Lewis of the University of Arizona. The council will meet for the first time at an SFF conference in California in October. FINDS, a $13 million endowment that funds "breakthrough projects" in space-related topics, currently supports NEO tracking projects at Canada's University of Victoria and asteroid iron extraction work at the University of Arizona. Deep Impact, a movie released in May by Dreamworks and Paramount, cost $75 million. The movie has grossed over $133 million in the United States alone by late June. Armageddon, about a giant asteroid headed towards Earth, opened in North America July 1. Its budget was estimated at well over $100 million. *** Science *** Io Volcanoes Hottest in Solar System Planetary scientists using data from the Galileo spacecraft have discovered that volcanoes on Io are the hottest planetary surfaces in the solar system, reaching temperatures of thousands of degrees. Researchers from the University of Arizona, Brown University, and other institutions, writing in the July 3 issue of the journal Science, found that at least a dozen volcanic vents on Io, the innermost of Jupiter's four largest moons, reach temperatures of at least 1,200 degrees Celsius (2,200 degrees Fahrenheit). One is as hot as 1,700 degrees C (3,100 degrees F), about three times hotter than the sunlit surface of Mercury. "The very hot lavas erupting on Io are hotter than anything that has erupted on Earth for billions of years," said Alfred McEwen, director of the University of Arizona's Planetary Image Research Lab. "They are the highest surface temperatures in the solar system other than the sun itself." McEwen and colleagues combined infrared data from Galileo, which provided temperatures, with visible-light camera images to confirm that the hotspots were associated with volcanic vents. The temperatures and colors imply the lava is rich in heavy elements like magnesium. That finding is leading scientists to questions the composition of Io's surface. Highly volcanic surfaces like Io are thought to be highly differentiated, with low-density materials in the crust and heavier materials below. Such a differentiated body would make it difficult for heavy magma, like that inferred from the Galileo data, to make it to the surface. "The evidence suggests we're seeing heavy magma erupt to the surface. How do we explain that?" McEwen asked. "It's harder for dense material to rise through a low-density crust, although this has occurred on Earth's moon. Perhaps some process mixes the crust back into Io's interior, so the crust has a higher density." Studies of Io may help understand conditions on the early Earth, McEwen said. "Early Earth is hard to understand because the evidence has been so degraded by an active environment and plate tectonics. I like to think of Io as a grand experiment in planetary vulcanism and differentiation." Io is heated by tidal forces. The moon is locked into an orbital resonance with Europa and Ganymede, two other Jovian moons, making its orbit slightly elliptical. The tidal forces caused by Jupiter's gravity heat Io's interior, which in turn powers the moon's volcanoes. Io's volcanoes were discovered by the Voyager 1 and 2 spacecraft as the flew by the Jovian system in 1979. Since then, volcanic eruptions on Io have been monitored by ground-based infrared telescopes, the Hubble Space Telescope, and Galileo. New Type of Near-Earth Asteroids Discovered Astronomers at the University of Hawaii have discovered a new type of near-Earth asteroid whose location makes them difficult to detect. Dr. David Tholen and Robert Whiteley of the University of Hawaii's Institute for Astronomy discovered 1998 DK36 earlier this year and found that its orbit lies entirely within that of the Earth -- that is, it never gets farther from the Sun than the Earth. All previously known asteroids have orbits that take them at least briefly beyond the orbit of the Earth. This type of orbit makes the asteroids difficult to detect, as they are close to the Sun in the sky as seen from the Earth, and thus are only visible in the dawn and dusk skies. "All other efforts to discover asteroids on a collision course with the Earth are being directed at a region of the sky almost opposite the Sun," said Tholen. "The significance of this discovery is that we would have otherwise never found this new asteroid because it apparently doesn't travel to that region of the sky being scanned by other search efforts." Such asteroids could strike the Earth from the daytime side without any advance warning possible, Tholen said. 1998 DK36 was discovered in February using a specialized camera system on the University of Hawaii's 2.2-meter (88-inch) telescope atop Mauna Kea. Tholen and Whiteley were performing observations of the dawn and dusk skies using the telescope to search for near-Earth asteroids. The asteroid is estimated to be about 40 meters (132 feet) in diameter. The size is comparable with the size of the stony asteroid that caused the Tunguska explosion in Siberia 90 years ago and the iron asteroid that created Meteor Crater in Arizona 50,000 years ago. 1998 DK36 appears to orbit between the orbits of Earth and Mercury. Tholen said that although they were not able to make enough observations for a complete analysis, their best-fit orbit has 1998 DK36 passing an apparently-safe 1.2 million kilometers (750,000 miles) from the Earth. "1998 DK36 is nothing to lose sleep over," said Tholen. "It's the ones we haven't found yet that are of concern." European Astronomers Discover Another Extrasolar Planet A team of European astronomers led by the duo who discovered the first extrasolar planet around a Sun-like star announced Monday, July 6 that they had discovered another planet orbiting another star similar to the Sun. The team, led by Michel Mayor of Switzerland's Geneva Observatory and Didier Queloz of the Geneva Observatory and JPL, discovered the planet around the star 14 Herculis (also known as Gliese 614). The star, with about 80 percent of the mass of the Sun, is located 60 light-years away in the constellation Hercules. The team estimated the mass of the planet to be 3.3 times that of Jupiter, the largest planet in our own solar system. The planet is located 2.5 AU (375 million kilometers, 232.5 million miles) from its parent star and takes 4.4 years to complete one orbit. "This long-period planet, orbiting a nearby star, is a very promising candidate for direct imaging," the discovered said in an announcement from the Geneva Observatory. "The longer the period, the larger the separation between the planet and the parent star, therefore the easier it becomes to distinguish the feeble glow of the planet near the bright glare of the star." The observers said the estimated separation between the planet and star is good enough to attempt direct observations of the star using the 3.6-meter (141.7-inch) Canada-France-Hawaii Telescope on Mauna Kea, Hawaii, using the telescope's adaptive optics system. The observers also confirmed the discovery last month of a planet around the star Gliese 876. The planet around the star, just 15 light years from Earth, was announced last month by veteran extrasolar planet discoverer Geoff Marcy of San Francisco State University. Mayor and Queloz discovered the first extrasolar planet around a Sun-like star when they discovered a planet around 51 Pegasi in 1995. *** CyberSpace *** The Space Weather Bureau Solar flares, aurorae, even meteor showers -- all are considered "space weather", events outside the Earth's atmosphere that can have effects on satellites, communications, and astronauts in orbit. The Space Weather Bureau provides updated information on the current space weather, such as solar flare activity, and a 24-hour forecast. There's also some background information on space weather phenomena and related news items. http://www.spaceweather.com/ Orbit-on-Web Orbit-on-Web allows people to perform orbital computations within their Web browser. Convert between orbital elements and state vectors, propigate orbits, compute transfers between orbits, and more, at this Web site. You'll need some knowledge of orbital mechanics and a browser that supports JavaScript to take advanatage of this site's features. http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2902/orbit.htm The Moon Race Homepage The Moon Race Homepage features a detailed history of the race between the United States and the Soviet Union to be the first to set a man on the Moon. A detailed timeline explores Space Race history from the 50s into the 70s, and background information gives you the opportunity to learn more about the people and technologies that shaped the efforts of both countries. Pictures and videos add to the multimedia experience of the site. http://members.aol.com/dsmith6439/moonrace/moonrace.htm Wired Collections: Space Exploration While Wired magazine is considered by many to be a magazine of the Internet and new computer technologies, it has published a number of articles on space exploration in the past several years, with an emphasis on new space technologies. This Web site includes links to those articles, ranging from SETI to the Roton and robotic spacecraft. There are also links to Wired News space news articles. http://www.wired.com/collections/space_exploration/ *** Space Capsules *** SpaceViews Event Horizon July 21: Galileo flyby of Europa July 23: Long March 2C/SD launch of replacement Iridium satellites August 13: Soyuz TM-28 launch from Baikonur, Kazakhstan August 13-16: Mars Society Founding Convention, Boulder, Colorado Other News SpaceDev Buys British Firm: SpaceDev announced July 6 that it was acquiring Space Innovations Limited (SIL), a British builder of small satellites and satellite subsystems. Terms of the deal were not announced. SpaceDev is working on the Near Earth Asteroid Prospedctor (NEAP), the first private space exploration spacecraft, and the SIL deal is seen as a way to bring needed knowledge and technology into the company. "We are especially interested in SIL's deep space X-band transceiver capabilities, one of many SIL subsystems applicable to our Near Earth Asteroid Prospector," Jim Benson, president and CEO of SpaceDev, said. SPACEHAB Buys Engineering Firm: SPACEHAB moved to expland its presence in support of human spaceflight July 1 with the acquisition of Houston-based Johnson Engineering Corporation ("JE"), a Johnson Space Center contractor. JE handles a number of key services for NASA, including operations of the Neutral Buoyancy Laboratory, a weightlessness trainer; construction of ISS mockups used in training; and developing hardware for use in the crew quarters of the International Space Station. Key leaders of JE, including former astronaut Eugene Cernan, will stay with SPACEHAB and its JE subsidiary. "Having spent most of my career in the space program, I am delighted to be part of SPACEHAB, which has been leading the development of commercial systems that are advancing the frontier of human space flight," Cernan said. Boeing, TRW Win NRO Contracts: TRW and Boeing announced Friday, July 10, that they won contracts to build and launch, respectively, an experimental National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) satellite to test the feasibility of laser communications. Under a $77.8 million contract, TRW will design, build and operate the Geosynchronous Lightweight Technology Experiment (GeoLITE) satellite. The satellite will be launched in early 2001 on a Boeing Delta II rocket. GeoLITE is an advanced technology demonstration satellite designed to test the effectiveness of laser communications. It will also be outfitted with more conventional ultra-high frequency (UHF) communications equipment. Evidence for Magentars: Astronomers at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center believe a recent series of low-energy gamma-ray bursts detected last month is caused by a magnetar, a rare type of neutron star with an intense magnetic field whose surface is subjected to powerful quakes. The bursts match the profile of a soft gamma repeater (SGR), a rare class of gamma-ray burst source. This SGR is only the fourth known to exist and the first discovered since the late 1970s. SGRs are thought to be a brief stage in the life of a magnetar, a neutron star with an intense magnetic field up to a million billion (10^15) times as powerful as the Earth's magnetic field. Astronomers think that the powerful magnetic fields of magnetars cause wrinkles in their tightly-bound surfaces. The fields cause wrinkles only a few millimeters high, but enough to cause the surfaces to crack in a "starquake" and release tremendous amounts of energy in the form of X-rays and gamma rays. University Gets Solar Satellite Contract: The University of California, Berkeley, has won a $72 million contract to build and operate a satellite designed to study solar flares during the upcoming solar maximum, the university announced June 30. The High Energy Solar Spectroscopic Imager (HESSI) will be the first NASA spacecraft in over 25 years to be designed, built, and operated entirely by a university and its partners. NASA relinquished control of much of the mission to the university as a way reduce the costs of the mission, estimated to be $72 million. "When we initially put together this mission the estimated cost was 10 times as much, in part because we had to comply with the way NASA did things in large projects," said project leader Professor Robert Lin. "Now that NASA has changed its philosophy, we can be lean and efficient - and more responsible to the public." The spacecraft, scheduled for launch into Earth orbit in the year 2000, will carry a telescope that will observe solar flares at X-ray and gamma-ray wavelengths. ====================== This has been the July 15, 1998, issue of SpaceViews Update. SpaceViews Update is also availble on the World Wide web from the SpaceViews home page: http://www.spaceviews.com/ or via anonymous FTP from ftp.seds.org: /pub/info/newsletters/spaceviews/update/980715.txt For editorial questions and article submissions for SpaceViews or Spaceviews Update, contact the editor, Jeff Foust, at jeff@spaceviews.com. For questions about the SpaceViews mailing list, please contact spaceviews-approval@nss.org. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ____ | "SpaceViews" (tm) -by Boston Chapter // \ // | of the National Space Society (NSS) // (O) // | Dedicated to the establishment // \___// | of a spacefaring civilization. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From VM Sat Aug 1 20:45:02 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["6259" "Sat" "1" "August" "1998" "12:12:39" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "189" "starship-design: Re: Here's an Idea" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 6259 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA00554 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA00548 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:13:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 3ZIZa29473; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 12:12:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: vfecool@one.net.au, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Here's an Idea Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 12:12:39 EDT Hi, Unfortunately your fluorescent tube idea won't do what you think. The tube only converts energy from an external power source (magnetic pulses from the lamp's power source, or other nearby AC power systems) to light. Useful if you need light, but it can't generate more power for thrust (you'd do better to just use a magnet against the external magnetic fields for thrust). We had tinkered with the idea of tapping interstellar magnetic fields for power, but the fields seem far too weak to use. Oh, as to using the power of earth's magnetic fields, they (or a star's magnetic fields) don't reach far enough. The Starship would blast past them in less than a second at full speed. It would be like trying to stop a bullet with a Kleenex. Worse, if it did work, the ship would be vaporized. I'll forward your letter to the group though, and thanks for writing! Kelly In a message dated 7/31/98 3:27:59 PM, you wrote: >Hello Kelly. > >I was viewing your site, the one where you are trying to design a starship > >capable of going to another system and slowing down then returning all > >within a respectable time-frame. I also noticed that you were having > >trouble with drive-systems and slow-down methods. Well I have plausible > >answers for both but for now I will give you one of my theories for a > >star-drive. > >Firstly, are you familiar with the concepts of a fluorescent tube. These > >devices are revolutionary in creating light. They are efficent, > >long-lasting and quite hardy. Unlike light bulbs. Now both of these devices > >create light. But only one of these is capable of operating in a > >high-airborne energy environment. Like that near a high-tension power line. > >Second. If a fluorescent light can create light through it's internal > >workings, could it be possible that it could, if modified, create a > >different type of energy under the same situation. It is also known that > >fluorescent lights emit a low-level radiation pulse that can affect smoke > >alarms. As I was saying, I have made a fluorescent light, with severe > >modifications, emit more radiation and a steady stream of magnetic forces. > >It also produces light but not much. > >Finally. I believe that with more refining, this new type of "generator" > >could be used to produce forces that may be productive. Imagine a wheel of > >these devices, spinning at super high speeds. All generating magnetic > >forces. I reckon that should be able to push something. For example, when I > >approached my device with a fridge magnet in hand. I could feel pulsating > >(rapid) pushes on the magnet, trying to move it away from the device. The > >closer I got, the harder it was to get the fridge magnet closer. > >By the way, the radiation was harmless. > >I hope you recieved my diagram. It is simple but I have no scanner, so > >using my limited art skills, I drew it as a bitmap. It is viewable in any > >paint program. Under Win95 of course. > >A brief explanation of it. > >The diagram displays the device as it is now. > >There is the shell, the original exterior of the fluro tube. Then inside > >that is the rod of host material which emits energy which reacts with the > >Particle Z floating around between the shell and the host material. Finally > >there is the depicted magnetic waves eminating from the tube. Based on what > >the device does, I call it: > >The THERMOELECTROMAGNETIC INDUCTOR. > >A fancy name yes, but necessary. It helps remind me about how the device > >works at it's most basic principal. Now all that is needed is a way to use > >this generator to push a starship. I believe that as a wild theory, why not > >push the drive against the Earth's magnetic field. If not then how about > >inside a rotating drum orbitting Earth, which projects the magnetic energy > >which is the same polarity as that produced by thermo inductor. When you > >activate the drive, whoosh! The magnetic forces collide and the ship is > >flung into space. The rotating action of the tube acts like the spiralling > >inside the barrel of a rifle. It helps to keep the ship straight. > >And second last but not least a few cosmic rules. > >The ship would have to be made of a non magnetic material and any computer > >systems on board would have to be protected somehow. > >The ship would not have to be very large but if it were then > >hypothetically, the bigger the engine, the bigger the thrust. > >As a possible slow down, simple rocket boosters could be used. > >As a return, if a reverse tube was not installed at the destination planet > >or system, then it could be possible to push against the magnetic field of > >a planet. > >If no planet existed then problems arise but for the first trip, the ship > >or maybe several ships would probably have to carry with them, either in > >tow or in storage, the equipment and raw materials to build a reverse tube > >at the proper destination. > >Also, to correct course, simple rocket thrusters could be installed on the > >exterior hull of the ship. > >As for 1/3 1/2 or even light speed travel, I am not sure. Maybe the drive > >could do it, if not then it would make a damn good solar system based > >traveller. > >And for energy, it would require only electrical power for the drive, as a > >bonus though, because the device is still essentially a fluorescent tube, > >the energy demands aren't all that high. The only solid fuel would be for > >the thrusters. A moderate amount would be required for the deceleration but > >exactly how much I do not know. > >And Last But Not Least. A few words from me to you. > >I am trusting this information to you on the grounds that you limit it's > >transmission to only relevent persons. Please post it to your web-site if > >you want but mask out my name at the end of this document. I have had a few > >"experiences" with people who want my work very much and I would like to > >avoid alerting those people that my work is nearing a practical stage. > >Please follow my directions and delete this paragraph and my identifying > >details. > >Thank you ever so much and I hope you like my semi-practical theory. > > > >Care of SHADY DEATH > >vfecool@one.net.au > >feel free to E-mail me if you are interested in any further theories. From VM Mon Aug 3 09:46:25 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["492" "Sun" "2" "August" "1998" "13:34:57" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "17" "starship-design: Re: Your Web Site" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 492 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA12902 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 10:35:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA12897 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 10:35:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id NDCHa29489; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 13:34:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: wcass@iastate.edu, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Your Web Site Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 13:34:57 EDT In a message dated 8/2/98 3:48:42 AM, you wrote: >I've just finished looking at your web site and to a writer of science >fiction, your site offers extremely inspiring avenues to the imagination. >Basically what I am saying is that I like your site and look forward to >seeing what you come up with next :) > >Sincerely, > >Wallace W. Cass Jr. Thanks a lot! We were hoping to inspire, and I'm glad it worked. Hope it triped off some good (and saleable) ideas for you. ;) Kelly Starks From VM Wed Aug 5 09:45:02 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1740" "Tue" "4" "August" "1998" "21:44:18" "-0500" "Jonathan J Jay" "jon_jay1@juno.com" nil "29" "starship-design: Power - T.E.M.I" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1740 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17812 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 19:47:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x13.boston.juno.com (x13.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.27]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA17804 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 19:47:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jon_jay1@juno.com) by x13.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DKUU86V2; Tue, 04 Aug 1998 22:45:58 EDT Message-ID: <19980804.214419.9718.1.jon_jay1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 11,16,22-23 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jon_jay1@juno.com (Jonathan J Jay) From: jon_jay1@juno.com (Jonathan J Jay) Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Power - T.E.M.I Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:44:18 -0500 A friend of mine reads my e-mails after me and after reading about the Thermoelectric Inductor(T.E.M.I.), he wished me to inform the group about an experiment of his in which he believes it may be the answer to low output clean energy with zero maintenance. It is a hyroniline tank. A friend of his at the university believes it will work but he will need MAJOR funding to implement a bigger model than the one he has already made. The one he has built is only about 10 centimeters long and produces between 15 and 30 volts depending on it's mood. He hasn't altered it's condition now for over three weeks and it is still going strong. It is hooked up to a transformer and from there to a low wattage light bulb. When he sees the bulb go out, he will know the average life-span of the unit. It works primarily on activating, no... exciting the water molecules in the tank using three different elemental bars. With an added bit of the special ingredient, the tank produces power. He is not sure, however, if the tank will produce more energy on a larger scale but for now it looks promising. Incidently, It cost him over 800 dollars just to buy enough of three different materials for the rods and the rods are only an eighth of an inch wide and barely an inch long! It will cost a fortune to build a larger model. The only thing that worries him is that it seems to slow down when cold so he wanted to ask the group how he could overcome that problem in a star drive. It is minus 200 up there! _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From VM Wed Aug 5 10:07:32 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2656" "Wed" "5" "August" "1998" "09:52:34" "-0700" "N. Lindberg" "nlindber@u.washington.edu" nil "48" "Re: starship-design: Power - T.E.M.I" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2656 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11541 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:52:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (root@jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11526 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dante09.u.washington.edu (nlindber@dante09.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.35]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id JAA25858; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:52:35 -0700 Received: from localhost (nlindber@localhost) by dante09.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id JAA13648; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:52:34 -0700 In-Reply-To: <19980804.214419.9718.1.jon_jay1@juno.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "N. Lindberg" From: "N. Lindberg" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Jonathan J Jay cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Power - T.E.M.I Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Jonathan, Where does the energy come from, that is, what is the theoretical basis of operation? Are the 'rods' consumed by the reaction? How many watts does the thing put out? Could you give an explanation of the device. What is the composition of the three 'rods' and the 'special ingredient' and how come it costs so much? How are the rods placed in the tank, do they touch, are they partially or completely immersed, are the rods changed any when the reaction starts., where do the power leads come out of the tank, and is the reaction self-starting, or does it require some activation energy? The reason why I ask is that I suspect your friend has gone and made himself a chemical battery. Tell him to try running it without one of the rods or switching it around and see what happens. 220,284 Nels On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Jonathan J Jay wrote: > A friend of mine reads my e-mails after me and after reading about the > Thermoelectric Inductor(T.E.M.I.), he wished me to inform the group about > an experiment of his in which he believes it may be the answer to low > output clean energy with zero maintenance. It is a hyroniline tank. A > friend of his at the university believes it will work but he will need > MAJOR funding to implement a bigger model than the one he has already > made. The one he has built is only about 10 centimeters long and produces > between 15 and 30 volts depending on it's mood. He hasn't altered it's > condition now for over three weeks and it is still going strong. It is > hooked up to a transformer and from there to a low wattage light bulb. > When he sees the bulb go out, he will know the average life-span of the > unit. > It works primarily on activating, no... exciting the water molecules in > the tank using three different elemental bars. With an added bit of the > special ingredient, the tank produces power. He is not sure, however, if > the tank will produce more energy on a larger scale but for now it looks > promising. > Incidently, It cost him over 800 dollars just to buy enough of three > different materials for the rods and the rods are only an eighth of an > inch wide and barely an inch long! It will cost a fortune to build a > larger model. The only thing that worries him is that it seems to slow > down when cold so he wanted to ask the group how he could overcome that > problem in a star drive. It is minus 200 > up there! > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > From VM Thu Aug 6 09:37:51 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3405" "Thu" "6" "August" "1998" "08:38:46" "-0500" "Jonathan J Jay" "jon_jay1@juno.com" nil "90" "Re:Re: starship-design: Power - T.E.M.I" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 3405 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA29916 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 06:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x13.boston.juno.com (x13.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.27]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA29908 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 06:42:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jon_jay1@juno.com) by x13.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DKYL347B; Thu, 06 Aug 1998 09:40:21 EDT Message-ID: <19980806.083848.4702.2.jon_jay1@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-6,8,10-13,15-22,24-36,38-60,62-67,69-72,74-75,77-84 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jon_jay1@juno.com (Jonathan J Jay) From: jon_jay1@juno.com (Jonathan J Jay) Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: nlindber@u.washington.edu Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re:Re: starship-design: Power - T.E.M.I Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 08:38:46 -0500 He was not entirely sure how to answer ALL your questions but he answered what he could. Hopefully with the information provided you should be able to understand and possibly even answer the rest of the questions. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Q> Where does the energy come from, What is the theoretical basis of operation? A> He believes the energy comes from particles in the fluid making contact with the rods and being shoved around the tank constantly slamming into the rods making more energy. That is the basis of operation, he thinks. Q> Are the 'rods' consumed by the reaction? A> No. Not in the slightest bit. The rods are still the exact measurements they started at. Q> How many watts does the thing put out? A> He is unsure about watts, but it makes 15 to 30 volts at 1.2 amps constantly. Q> Could you give an explanation of the device? A> Essentially, it is a circular 'tank' filled with fluid and then the rods are inserted. Q> What is the composition of the three 'rods'? A> One is Iron. (Fe) The other two are classified. Q> What is the Special Ingredient? A> KENTUCKY FRIED CHICKEN!!!!! Not. It is secret, but granular. Q> How come it costs so much? A> Because one rod is made of a precious metal. Not gold or silver. Q> How are the rods placed in the tank? A> He inserted the base of each rod into a predrilled groove in the bottom of the tank for each rod. Q> Do they touch? A> Each other? No. Q> Are they partially or completely immersed? A> Completely. Q> Are the 'rods' changed any when the reaction starts? A> They heat up about 11 degrees centigrade but that's it. Q> Where do the power leads come out of the tank? A> The two leads are taped to the side of the tank. Then they go over the edge and are immersed in the fluid with the bare ends dipped at least two centimeters under. Q> Is the reaction self starting or does it require a kick start? A> He isn't sure. He was going to give it a kick start but it started by itself. Just to be on the safe side, he did give it a kick start but is unsure if that helped any. Q> Could it run with one rod missing or alternating their positions? A> No. It could run with one rod missing for two minutes but no longer. And the rods HAVE to be in that position. On Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:52:34 -0700 (PDT) "N. Lindberg" writes: >Jonathan, > Where does the energy come from, that is, what is the theoretical >basis of operation? Are the 'rods' consumed by the reaction? How many >watts does the thing put out? Could you give an explanation of the >device. What is the composition of the three 'rods' and the 'special >ingredient' and how come it costs so much? How are the rods placed in the >tank, do they touch, are they partially or completely immersed, are the >rods changed any when the reaction starts., where do the power leads come >out of the tank, and is the reaction self-starting, or does it require >some activation energy? The reason why I ask is that I suspect your >friend has gone and made himself a chemical battery. Tell him to try >running it without one of the rods or switching it around and see what >happens. >220,284 >Nels _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From VM Thu Aug 6 10:49:44 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1974" "Thu" "6" "August" "1998" "10:35:39" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "46" "starship-design: Power - T.E.M.I" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1974 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA02822 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hexadecimal.uoregon.edu (hexadecimal.uoregon.edu [128.223.32.56]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA02817 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:35:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [204.214.99.68]) by hexadecimal.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA27865; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:35:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA16144; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:35:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <13769.59755.452312.778225@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <19980806.083848.4702.2.jon_jay1@juno.com> References: <19980806.083848.4702.2.jon_jay1@juno.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.59 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: jon_jay1@juno.com (Jonathan J Jay) Cc: nlindber@u.washington.edu, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Power - T.E.M.I Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Jonathan J Jay writes: > He was not entirely sure how to answer ALL your questions but he answered > what he could. Hopefully with the information provided you should be able > to understand and possibly even answer the rest of the questions. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Q> Where does the energy come from, What is the theoretical basis of > operation? > A> He believes the energy comes from particles in the fluid > making contact with the rods and being shoved around the tank > constantly slamming into the rods making more energy. That is > the basis of operation, he thinks. Uh huh. I still think it's a chemical battery; he seems to think it's some kind of thermal engine. Either way it's not a useful power source for a starship drive, because it's not going to yield enough energy. Nuclear fusion is barely capable of generating enough energy to accelerate a spacecraft to relativistic speeds, and then only with a very high fuel-to-payload ratio. > Q> Are the 'rods' consumed by the reaction? > A> No. Not in the slightest bit. The rods are still the exact > measurements they started at. Uh huh. What measurements are these? > Q> How many watts does the thing put out? > A> He is unsure about watts, but it makes 15 to 30 volts at 1.2 amps > constantly. Oooh, this is a bad sign. If he doesn't know enough about physics to calculate wattage from those figures, I'm not going to be particularly trusting of his other claims. W = V * A. It puts out 18-36 watts. "Constantly?" For how long? It can't last forever. > Q> Are the 'rods' changed any when the reaction starts? > A> They heat up about 11 degrees centigrade but that's it. Yet another sign that it's probably no more than a chemical battery. I really think this is not something we should be discussing on starship-design. I didn't set up this list to be a "kook science" forum or a place to discuss proprietary battery designs. From VM Thu Aug 6 15:46:15 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2586" "Thu" "6" "August" "1998" "15:36:47" "-0700" "N. Lindberg" "nlindber@u.washington.edu" nil "62" "Re: starship-design: Power - T.E.M.I" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2586 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA24721 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (root@jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA24716 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dante10.u.washington.edu (nlindber@dante10.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.36]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id PAA20132; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:36:48 -0700 Received: from localhost (nlindber@localhost) by dante10.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id PAA77220; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:36:48 -0700 In-Reply-To: <13769.59755.452312.778225@tzadkiel.efn.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "N. Lindberg" From: "N. Lindberg" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Steve VanDevender cc: Jonathan J Jay , starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Power - T.E.M.I Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:36:47 -0700 (PDT) Jon, Do the leads touch the metal posts? if so, then i can guarantee you that your friend's has built himself an extremely expensive, low power wet cell. if not, well....(shrug). I'm afraid i have to agree with Steve in his estimation of yr friend's physics skills, no offense. Also, what does this have to do with TEMI? I mean, you never mentioned the Peltier effect, and your friend gave no indication of a TE diode being part of his apparat. Best Regards Nels On Thu, 6 Aug 1998, Steve VanDevender wrote: > Jonathan J Jay writes: > > He was not entirely sure how to answer ALL your questions but he answered > > what he could. Hopefully with the information provided you should be able > > to understand and possibly even answer the rest of the questions. > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Q> Where does the energy come from, What is the theoretical basis of > > operation? > > A> He believes the energy comes from particles in the fluid > > making contact with the rods and being shoved around the tank > > constantly slamming into the rods making more energy. That is > > the basis of operation, he thinks. > > Uh huh. I still think it's a chemical battery; he seems to think > it's some kind of thermal engine. Either way it's not a useful > power source for a starship drive, because it's not going to > yield enough energy. Nuclear fusion is barely capable of > generating enough energy to accelerate a spacecraft to > relativistic speeds, and then only with a very high > fuel-to-payload ratio. > > > Q> Are the 'rods' consumed by the reaction? > > A> No. Not in the slightest bit. The rods are still the exact > > measurements they started at. > > Uh huh. What measurements are these? > > > Q> How many watts does the thing put out? > > A> He is unsure about watts, but it makes 15 to 30 volts at 1.2 amps > > constantly. > > Oooh, this is a bad sign. If he doesn't know enough about > physics to calculate wattage from those figures, I'm not going to > be particularly trusting of his other claims. W = V * A. It > puts out 18-36 watts. "Constantly?" For how long? It can't > last forever. > > > Q> Are the 'rods' changed any when the reaction starts? > > A> They heat up about 11 degrees centigrade but that's it. > > Yet another sign that it's probably no more than a chemical > battery. > > I really think this is not something we should be discussing on > starship-design. I didn't set up this list to be a "kook > science" forum or a place to discuss proprietary battery designs. > From VM Fri Aug 7 09:38:47 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1841" "Fri" "7" "August" "1998" "10:35:36" "+0200" "Bjorn Nilsson" "f96bni@student.tdb.uu.se" nil "64" "Re: starship-design: Power - T.E.M.I" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1841 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA00277 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 01:35:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sabik.tdb.uu.se (ppB4lkDvkVHuap4DbUIvz0msQ+tG5DkF@sabik.tdb.uu.se [130.238.138.70]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA00270 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 01:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (f96bni@localhost) by sabik.tdb.uu.se (8.8.8/8.8.8/STUD_1.1) with SMTP id KAA12619 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 10:35:36 +0200 (MET DST) X-Sender: f96bni@sabik.tdb.uu.se In-Reply-To: <13769.59755.452312.778225@tzadkiel.efn.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Bjorn Nilsson From: Bjorn Nilsson Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Power - T.E.M.I Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 10:35:36 +0200 (MET DST) Personally I think this whole thing is a hoax... (No offence intended to anyone) On Thu, 6 Aug 1998, Steve VanDevender wrote: > Jonathan J Jay writes: > > He was not entirely sure how to answer ALL your questions but he answered > > what he could. Hopefully with the information provided you should be able > > to understand and possibly even answer the rest of the questions. > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Q> Where does the energy come from, What is the theoretical basis of > > operation? > > A> He believes the energy comes from particles in the fluid > > making contact with the rods and being shoved around the tank > > constantly slamming into the rods making more energy. That is > > the basis of operation, he thinks. > Sounds "almost" like a perpetual Motion machine to me! Unfortunatly those things aint posible :) "Lisa, In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!" Hommer simpson. > > > Q> How many watts does the thing put out? > > A> He is unsure about watts, but it makes 15 to 30 volts at 1.2 amps > > constantly. Well, this is what makes me sceptical of the whole thing... No way are you gona get 15-30 Volts from an electrochemical cell and from the discribtion I can't imagine what else would make it work... > > Oooh, this is a bad sign. If he doesn't know enough about > physics to calculate wattage from those figures, I'm not going to > be particularly trusting of his other claims. W = V * A. It > puts out 18-36 watts. "Constantly?" For how long? It can't > last forever. > > > I really think this is not something we should be discussing on > starship-design. I didn't set up this list to be a "kook > science" forum or a place to discuss proprietary battery designs. > Heh heh, you might be right! :) Bjornie From VM Fri Aug 7 09:38:47 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["300" "Fri" "7" "August" "1998" "05:55:26" "-0500" "Kevin Houston" "kevin@urly-bird.com" nil "11" "starship-design: Im' back." "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 300 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA18585 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 03:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.wavefront.com (ns.wavefront.com [204.73.244.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA18571 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 03:55:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.wavefront.com (8.6.10/SMI-4.1.R931202) id FAA00847; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 05:59:51 -0500 Received: from wf-6-8.wavefront.net(206.146.208.184), claiming to be "urly-bird.com" via SMTP by ns.wavefront.com, id smtpdAAAa00837; Fri Aug 7 10:59:47 1998 Message-ID: <35CADD1E.AFC1F679@urly-bird.com> Organization: URLy Bird Productions X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Kevin Houston From: Kevin Houston Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: SSD Subject: starship-design: Im' back. Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 05:55:26 -0500 Hello all. I've settled down into a stable E-mail address again. please update your bookmarks with this address kevin@urly-bird.com I've also started recieving the list again. what is the latest buzz? is there a solid theoretical design yet, and if so what are the parameters? -- Kevin Houston From VM Fri Aug 7 09:38:47 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1083" "Fri" "7" "August" "1998" "10:21:20" "-0500" "Jonathan J Jay" "jon_jay1@juno.com" nil "22" "Re: starship-design: Power - T.E.M.I" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1083 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA03710 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 08:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x13.boston.juno.com (x13.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.27]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA03701 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 08:25:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jon_jay1@juno.com) by x13.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DK3DCR5S; Fri, 07 Aug 1998 11:22:59 EDT Message-ID: <19980807.102121.11918.1.jon_jay1@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-16 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jon_jay1@juno.com (Jonathan J Jay) From: jon_jay1@juno.com (Jonathan J Jay) Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Power - T.E.M.I Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 10:21:20 -0500 This is what he wrote, not me: " I know what my device does. My bud sees major potential and just because I never learned advanced physics, or whatever, doesn't mean that I can't make it work. In answer to your points. ((A)). No it is not a battery. ((B)). The wires do not touch the rods. ((C)). As far as I know, it will last indefinitely. ((D)). Thanks for the little equation on V and A and stuff but I use a handheld voltmeter bought from an electronic shop on the corner because I spent all my dough building the device. ((E)). The TEMI is the DRIVE. The Hyronoline Tank is the POWER SOURCE. Also, the tank is as real as you or me. It is not a hoax. It has been running for three and a half weeks and doesn't show any sign of stopping. At present, I think that raising the temperature of the fluid may yield more energy." _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From VM Mon Aug 10 09:43:15 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1012" "Sat" "8" "August" "1998" "13:28:41" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "Shealiak@XS4ALL.nl" nil "20" "Re: starship-design: Power - T.E.M.I" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1012 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA13602 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 05:29:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.xs4all.nl (smtp3.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.53]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA13590 for ; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 05:29:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tim (dc2-modem2187.dial.xs4all.nl [194.109.136.139]) by smtp3.xs4all.nl (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA27011 for ; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 14:29:17 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980808132841.007b5860@pop.xs4all.nl> X-Sender: shealiak@pop.xs4all.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) In-Reply-To: <19980807.102121.11918.1.jon_jay1@juno.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Timothy van der Linden From: Timothy van der Linden Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Power - T.E.M.I Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 13:28:41 +0100 Jonathan, Why did your friend want to inform this mailing list of his experiment while it still is in a premature phase (it has been running only 3 weeks)? This list can't function if we can't have more exact data or theory. The availability of infinite obtainable energy in a small container would make a large part of the subjects of this list useless. This is not a problem, however such devices need more backup than a single university friend who "believes" that it will work. Only freedom of information (if necessary through a patent) about the device will serve as enough backup. This mailing list can't function in any other way. If your friend merely did want to ask how he could avoid rapid cooling of the device in space, then the answer is simple: Insulation. But of course the propulsion system we need should release enough energy per second to accelerate a heavy starship. The heating of the device would only be a fraction of the power compared to the power needed for acceleration. Timothy From VM Mon Aug 10 09:43:15 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1623" "Sat" "8" "August" "1998" "11:19:03" "-0500" "Jonathan J Jay" "jon_jay1@juno.com" nil "45" "Re: starship-design: Power - T.E.M.I" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1623 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11674 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 09:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x13.boston.juno.com (x13.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.27]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11665 for ; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 09:22:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jon_jay1@juno.com) by x13.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DK523E7B; Sat, 08 Aug 1998 12:20:51 EDT Message-ID: <19980808.111904.6278.0.jon_jay1@juno.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19980808132841.007b5860@pop.xs4all.nl> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-6,8-39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jon_jay1@juno.com (Jonathan J Jay) From: jon_jay1@juno.com (Jonathan J Jay) Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Shealiak@XS4ALL.nl Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Power - T.E.M.I Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 11:19:03 -0500 That, unfortunately, was the first thing I suggested. It cannot be insulated because it is live. Nothing can touch it without being zapped. He didn't want to ground it, so he put it on some corkboard and blue tacked it in place. Jonathan On Sat, 08 Aug 1998 13:28:41 +0100 Timothy van der Linden writes: >Jonathan, > >Why did your friend want to inform this mailing list of his experiment >while it still is in a premature phase (it has been running only 3 >weeks)? >This list can't function if we can't have more exact data or theory. > >The availability of infinite obtainable energy in a small container >would >make a large part of the subjects of this list useless. This is not a >problem, however such devices need more backup than a single >university >friend who "believes" that it will work. Only freedom of information >(if >necessary through a patent) about the device will serve as enough >backup. >This mailing list can't function in any other way. > >If your friend merely did want to ask how he could avoid rapid cooling >of >the device in space, then the answer is simple: Insulation. >But of course the propulsion system we need should release enough >energy >per second to accelerate a heavy starship. The heating of the device >would >only be a fraction of the power compared to the power needed for >acceleration. > >Timothy > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From VM Mon Aug 10 09:43:15 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["608" "Sat" "8" "August" "1998" "16:00:39" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "19" "Re: starship-design: Power - T.E.M.I" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 608 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA18434 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 13:01:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA18422; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 13:01:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 7EJKa04142; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 16:00:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: stevev@efn.org, owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, jon_jay1@juno.com Cc: nlindber@u.washington.edu, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Power - T.E.M.I Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 16:00:39 EDT In a message dated 8/6/98 2:04:40 PM, stevev@efn.org wrote: > > > Q> Are the 'rods' changed any when the reaction starts? > > A> They heat up about 11 degrees centigrade but that's it. > >Yet another sign that it's probably no more than a chemical >battery. > >I really think this is not something we should be discussing on >starship-design. I didn't set up this list to be a "kook >science" forum or a place to discuss proprietary battery designs. Strongly agree! This is obviously nothing of interest to this group, or anyone else with knowledge of energy systems. Sorry for farwarding him. Kelly From VM Mon Aug 10 09:43:15 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["679" "Sat" "8" "August" "1998" "19:25:02" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "Shealiak@XS4ALL.nl" nil "18" "Re: starship-design: Power - T.E.M.I" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 679 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20818 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 13:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.xs4all.nl (smtp3.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.53]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA20811 for ; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 13:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tim (dc2-modem2179.dial.xs4all.nl [194.109.136.131]) by smtp3.xs4all.nl (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA01658 for ; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 22:17:37 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980808192502.00794d20@pop.xs4all.nl> X-Sender: shealiak@pop.xs4all.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) In-Reply-To: <19980808.111904.6278.0.jon_jay1@juno.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19980808132841.007b5860@pop.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Timothy van der Linden From: Timothy van der Linden Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Power - T.E.M.I Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 19:25:02 +0100 Jonathan, You wrote: >That [insulation], unfortunately, was the first thing I suggested. It >cannot be insulated because it is live. Nothing can touch >it without being zapped. He didn't want to ground it, so he >put it on some corkboard and blue tacked it in place. I meant THERMAL insulation. This should have to do little with ELECTRICAL insulation, which is what I think to read in the above message. So my suggestion is: put the heat-sensitive part of the device in a thermos-flask. If the device can sit on corkboard and be in normal air, it should not matter if it for example is inside a mirrored glass flask. OK, I hope this has cleared up the confusion. Timothy From VM Mon Aug 10 09:43:16 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1071" "Sun" "9" "August" "1998" "15:07:58" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "22" "starship-design: Freedom city ship" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1071 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12857 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 9 Aug 1998 12:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12850 for ; Sun, 9 Aug 1998 12:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 2FHOa12330 for ; Sun, 9 Aug 1998 15:07:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <639cd98c.35cdf390@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Freedom city ship Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 15:07:58 EDT Hey check out http://www.freedomshipcity.com/index.html http://popularmechanics.com/popmech/sci/9802STRSAM.html Its an idea for a floating city ship. Looks like the project will get funding and probably launch in 2-3 years. It cruses around the world as a combination resort/retirement home, trade center (tariff free) and tourist spot. 25 stories tall, 4300 feet long, onboard airport and marina, and has a population of tens of thousands. Its planing to recycle its water and airs not a big step up from there. So its functionally very much like a space station on water. But more important a self supporting platform that can self fund as residence & zero tariff trading port is a very interesting step toward seting up colonies on sea or in space. I've heard several times that a floating city is a good testbed for the economics of a orbiting city, but this is the first project that looks like its got a practical idea, not just a idealize vision. (Hey it makes more sence then colonizing Mars!) I'm very interested to see how it will come off. Kelly From VM Mon Aug 10 09:43:16 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1396" "Mon" "10" "August" "1998" "09:37:55" "+0200" "Bjorn Nilsson" "f96bni@student.tdb.uu.se" nil "32" "Re: starship-design: Power - T.E.M.I" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1396 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA13454 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 00:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sabik.tdb.uu.se (0HH/AdZ9sWtec30P0rZtNvOwtcJcKxUX@sabik.tdb.uu.se [130.238.138.70]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA13446 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 00:38:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (f96bni@localhost) by sabik.tdb.uu.se (8.8.8/8.8.8/STUD_1.1) with SMTP id JAA11894; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 09:37:56 +0200 (MET DST) X-Sender: f96bni@sabik.tdb.uu.se In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980808132841.007b5860@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Bjorn Nilsson From: Bjorn Nilsson Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Timothy van der Linden cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Power - T.E.M.I Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 09:37:55 +0200 (MET DST) On Sat, 8 Aug 1998, Timothy van der Linden wrote: > Jonathan, > > Why did your friend want to inform this mailing list of his experiment > while it still is in a premature phase (it has been running only 3 weeks)? > This list can't function if we can't have more exact data or theory. > > The availability of infinite obtainable energy in a small container would > make a large part of the subjects of this list useless. This is not a > problem, however such devices need more backup than a single university > friend who "believes" that it will work. Only freedom of information (if > necessary through a patent) about the device will serve as enough backup. > This mailing list can't function in any other way. > > If your friend merely did want to ask how he could avoid rapid cooling of > the device in space, then the answer is simple: Insulation. > But of course the propulsion system we need should release enough energy > per second to accelerate a heavy starship. The heating of the device would > only be a fraction of the power compared to the power needed for acceleration. > > Timothy > > Besides, as I've understood it most Starships would have trouble with overheating (from all the waste heat of equipment and propulsion systems on board) because of the lack of a medium to carry the internal termal energy into space, rather than with "deep-freezing" anyway... Bjornie From VM Mon Aug 10 09:43:16 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["417" "Mon" "10" "August" "1998" "11:58:57" "+0200" "Bjorn Nilsson" "f96bni@student.tdb.uu.se" nil "15" "Re: starship-design: Power - T.E.M.I" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 417 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA11681 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 02:59:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sabik.tdb.uu.se (/P+9CXADKMlHBl81wfOd2r83ehGj+9pn@sabik.tdb.uu.se [130.238.138.70]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA11673 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 02:59:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (f96bni@localhost) by sabik.tdb.uu.se (8.8.8/8.8.8/STUD_1.1) with SMTP id LAA15598; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 11:58:57 +0200 (MET DST) X-Sender: f96bni@sabik.tdb.uu.se In-Reply-To: <19980807.102121.11918.1.jon_jay1@juno.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Bjorn Nilsson From: Bjorn Nilsson Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Jonathan J Jay cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Power - T.E.M.I Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 11:58:57 +0200 (MET DST) On Fri, 7 Aug 1998, Jonathan J Jay wrote: > This is what he wrote, not me: > " I know what my device does. My bud sees major potential > and just because I never learned advanced physics, or whatever, > doesn't mean that I can't make it work. In answer to your points. > ((A)). No it is not a battery. > ((B)). The wires do not touch the rods. > ((C)). As far as I know, it will last indefinitely. ROFLMAO From VM Tue Aug 11 11:05:51 1998 Content-Length: 223 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["223" "Mon" "10" "August" "1998" "13:33:41" "-0700" "Kyle R. Mcallister" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "12" "Re: starship-design: Freedom city ship" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 223 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA14315 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 11:36:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA14290 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 11:36:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OEMComputer (pm3-125.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.125]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA28158 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 14:36:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35CF5925.4142@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <639cd98c.35cdf390@aol.com> <35CE166A.462B@sunherald.infi.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Freedom city ship Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:33:41 -0700 Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > KellySt@aol.com wrote: > (Hey it makes more > sence then colonizing Mars!) I'm very interested to see how it will > come off. What is wrong with colonizing Mars? Kyle R. Mcallister From VM Tue Aug 11 09:44:26 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1943" "Mon" "10" "August" "1998" "23:54:54" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "53" "Re: RE: starship-design: Freedom city ship" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1943 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA16334 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA16323 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:56:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id VPPa004231; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 23:54:54 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: lparker@cacaphony.net, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: RE: starship-design: Freedom city ship Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 23:54:54 EDT In a message dated 8/9/98 6:55:06 PM, lparker@cacaphony.net wrote: >Kelly, > > > >I saw a news article on that several months ago, but didn't think about it >in relationship to our search for a comparable model to an interstellar >expedition. With two small exceptions, you are correct that this is the >closest approach yet. Actually I was thinking of it more as a model for space development, specifically space stations, but they are obviously similar. Thou a 50,000 person floating city is a big jump past a 700 person interstellar survey ship. >The exceptions are transport costs to the vessel and mission fuel >requirements. It costs considerably less than the current $10,000 per pound >to Earth orbit to send a supply vessel or ferry to this ship and the fuel to >weight ratio is certainly in its favor as well. > > >When we CAN match these two parameters in a spaceship, interstellar travel >will be commonplace! In the meanwhile, we must go anyway and accept that it >will take longer, cost more and we will have to send fewer people, but go we >must. Well the current cost to orbit is a side effect of political factors and the current trivial flight rates. Obviously just lifting the fuel for a starship like ours would drive the launch industry up orders of magnitude in size, and down orders of magnitude in costs. However the resulting cost (assuming current technology) might be less then an airliner, but far more then an ocean frieghter. > >Historically speaking, we are at the stage of the Viking explorers when they >found Newfoundland and Nova Scotia, and it is a long way, technically >speaking, from a Viking longship to a floating city! Well were not that far down. The Vikings could even dream of the technology the floating city would use. We already have most of the technologies a starship would need. Thou obviously some wild cards like zero=point energy would be a BIG help. ;) > >Lee Kelly From VM Tue Aug 11 09:44:26 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["164" "Tue" "11" "August" "1998" "10:05:32" "-0500" "Gene Marlin" "rmarlin@network-one.com" nil "3" "starship-design: Interstellar Probes " "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 164 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10296 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 08:10:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netra1.network-one.com (netra1.network-one.com [209.149.88.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA10276 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 08:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from marlin ([209.149.88.59]) by netra1.network-one.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with SMTP id AAA450A for ; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:10:39 -0500 Message-ID: <35D05DBB.558C@network-one.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Gene Marlin From: Gene Marlin Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Interstellar Probes Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:05:32 -0500 Using current and near-term technology, how fast could we get a 2 kilogram probe to nearby stars such as Tau Ceti, Epsilon Eridani, Proxima Centauri, and 61 Cygni? From VM Tue Aug 11 09:44:26 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1165" "Tue" "11" "August" "1998" "11:30:07" "-0700" "Kyle R. Mcallister" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "29" "Re: starship-design: Interstellar Probes" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1165 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA07273 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:32:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA07258 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:32:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OEMComputer (pm3-134.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.134]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA24378 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 12:32:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35D08DAF.434E@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <35D05DBB.558C@network-one.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Interstellar Probes Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 11:30:07 -0700 Gene Marlin wrote: > > Using current and near-term technology, how fast could we get a 2 > kilogram probe to nearby stars such as Tau Ceti, Epsilon Eridani, > Proxima Centauri, and 61 Cygni? Depends on what kind of propulsion you use. To get it there fast is virtually impossible with current technology. To give you an example of how bad it really is, this is how much it would take to send a school bus sized payload past Alpha Centauri in 900 years: Propellant: Specific Imp.: Fuel mass: ======================================================= Chemical 500 10^137kg (not enough mass in universe) Nuclear fission 5000 10^17kg (a billion supertankers) Nuclear fusion 10000 10^11kg (a thousand supertankers) Antimatter 50000 10^5kg (ten railway tankers) If you want to get there faster that 900 years, it gets worse. If you want to actually stop at the destination, it gets even worse. That's why I don't believe we will make it with any of these propulsion systems. It would be better for a 2 kg probe, but not good. Kyle R. Mcallister From VM Wed Aug 12 00:04:19 1998 Content-Length: 616 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["616" "Tue" "11" "August" "1998" "22:17:45" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "25" "Re: Re: starship-design: Freedom city ship" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 616 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA13372 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 19:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA13352 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 19:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 5IVZa13455; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 22:17:45 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: <8221b436.35d0fb4a@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: stk@sunherald.infi.net, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: Re: starship-design: Freedom city ship Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 22:17:45 EDT In a message dated 8/10/98 1:42:50 PM, stk@sunherald.infi.net wrote: >Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: >> >KellySt@aol.com wrote: > > > >> (Hey it makes more >> sence then colonizing Mars!) I'm very interested to see how it will > come off. > >What is wrong with colonizing Mars? None of the Mars coloinization concepts offer a plausibly way the Colony could pay its way (colonies and cities that arn't profitable become ghost towns), this flosting city can, and its: cheaper, more accesable, has a greater surface area to colonize, and far less servicing and transport problems. Kelly > >Kyle R. Mcallister From VM Wed Aug 12 00:04:20 1998 Content-Length: 444 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["444" "Tue" "11" "August" "1998" "22:43:40" "-0700" "Kyle R. Mcallister" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "9" "Re: starship-design: Freedom city ship" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 444 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02076 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 22:59:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA02064 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 20:46:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OEMComputer (pm3-145.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.145]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA11282; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 23:46:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35D12B8C.C6A@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8221b436.35d0fb4a@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: KellySt@aol.com CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Freedom city ship Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 22:43:40 -0700 > None of the Mars coloinization concepts offer a plausibly way the Colony could > pay its way (colonies and cities that arn't profitable become ghost towns), > this flosting city can, and its: cheaper, more accesable, has a greater > surface area to colonize, and far less servicing and transport problems. Ah, I understand. I thought you were adverse to exploring Mars. Colonizing it also does not make much sense to me. Kyle R. Mcallister From VM Wed Aug 12 11:23:27 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2025" "Wed" "12" "August" "1998" "09:24:45" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "Shealiak@XS4ALL.nl" nil "44" "Re: starship-design: Interstellar Probes" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2025 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA22468 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 03:39:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.xs4all.nl (smtp1.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.51]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA22462 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 03:39:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tim (dc2-modem2179.dial.xs4all.nl [194.109.136.131]) by smtp1.xs4all.nl (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA19567 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:39:04 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980812092445.007a5580@pop.xs4all.nl> X-Sender: shealiak@pop.xs4all.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) In-Reply-To: <35D08DAF.434E@sunherald.infi.net> References: <35D05DBB.558C@network-one.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Timothy van der Linden From: Timothy van der Linden Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Interstellar Probes Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:24:45 +0100 Kyle wrote: >Depends on what kind of propulsion you use. To get it there fast is >virtually impossible with current technology. > >To give you an example of how bad it really is, this is how much it >would take to send a school bus sized payload past Alpha Centauri in 900 >years: > >Propellant: Specific Imp.: Fuel mass: >======================================================= >Chemical 500 10^137kg (not enough mass in >universe) >Nuclear fission 5000 10^17kg (a billion >supertankers) >Nuclear fusion 10000 10^11kg (a thousand >supertankers) >Antimatter 50000 10^5kg (ten railway tankers) > >If you want to get there faster that 900 years, it gets worse. If you >want to actually stop at the destination, it gets even worse. That's why >I don't believe we will make it with any of these propulsion systems. It >would be better for a 2 kg probe, but not good. I'm not so sure whether the numbers in the table are correct, however the table does depict an important characteristics: (Kyle, next time you do calculations please include some rough guide of how you got the numbers.) - A low specific impulse (Isp) is really bad from a total energy (and thus mass) point of view. - A relative small increasing in the Isp will yield spectacular decreases in energy consumption and thus mass of the fuel. I'd like to remark that of the 10^5 kg in the last case, only VERY LITTLE (140 gram) has to be anti-matter, because the amount of energy needed to give 10^5 kg a velocity of about 5E5 m/s is "relatively" small. Increasing the Isp to more than 3E5 seconds (exhaust velocities of more than 1% of the speed of light) will be necessary before any serious probe will be sent. >From an energy point of view this doesn't need anti-matter, fusion can provide enough energy in a relative small package as well. The question is whether that energy can deliver what we need: few but fast particles. Timothy From VM Wed Aug 12 17:10:39 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["846" "Tue" "11" "August" "1998" "23:46:43" "-0700" "Kyle R. Mcallister" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "24" "Re: starship-design: Interstellar Probes" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 846 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA14874 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 17:01:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA14850 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 17:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35D13A53.BCC@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <000001bdc5a5$e2eb7780$1d5b31cc@lparker> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "L. Parker" CC: Starship Design Subject: Re: starship-design: Interstellar Probes Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 23:46:43 -0700 L. Parker wrote: > > Kyle, > > You weren't being fair, you simply quoted from NASA's "Warp Drive When?" > page. Well, they should know, they're the experts. > A 2 kg probe is in the starwisp class and we already know how to get > one of those up to 30 percent of lightspeed with virtually no fuel. What can you put in a 2kg package that will justify the expense? If nanotech procedes, there is hope, but if not... You can't stop the thing; so what are you going to observe flying through so quickly? After all, this group is for discussing sending a manned mission to another star. I posted the real, if somewhat dissapointing, fuel needs. The only hope I see for a manned mission anyways is if we figure out how to manipulate gravitation and space-time. Then we might get somewhere. How to do it...we don't know. Yet. Kyle R. Mcallister From VM Wed Aug 12 17:10:39 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["275" "Wed" "12" "August" "1998" "17:00:53" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu" nil "5" "starship-design: messages from last night" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 275 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA14529 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 17:00:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA14488; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 17:00:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <13778.11445.772230.445566@darkwing.uoregon.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.59 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: messages from last night Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 17:00:53 -0700 (PDT) We had some problems with darkwing.uoregon.edu last night that seem to have prevented a few posts from being redistributed (and I was busy trying to bring darkwing back to life so I haven't gotten to them until now). I'll be forwarding them back into the list momentarily. From VM Wed Aug 12 17:21:18 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1257" "Tue" "11" "August" "1998" "23:01:36" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "27" "RE: starship-design: Interstellar Probes " "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1257 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17795 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 17:11:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17786 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 17:11:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000101bdc5a5$e6b8fa40$1d5b31cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <35D05DBB.558C@network-one.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Gene Marlin" Cc: "Starship Design" Subject: RE: starship-design: Interstellar Probes Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 23:01:36 -0500 Gene, Robert Forward proposed an interstellar probe based on a perforated sail design combined with gravity assist and beamed microwave power. The payload was to be 4 grams of intelligent microcircuitry embedded within the actual structure of the craft - something that is not so far fetched any more - we actually know how to do this! Forward's calculations showed that we could accelerate starwisp (his name for it) to 20 percent of the speed of light within only a few days. This would deliver the probe to Alpha Centauri within about twenty years. You must note however, that this is a "flyby" at twenty percent of the speed of light with a very limited payload and extremely limited data return. It may not be very useful, especially in light of what we can potentially see from Earth orbit with advanced optics. -----Original Message----- From: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu [mailto:owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu]On Behalf Of Gene Marlin Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 1998 10:06 AM To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Interstellar Probes Using current and near-term technology, how fast could we get a 2 kilogram probe to nearby stars such as Tau Ceti, Epsilon Eridani, Proxima Centauri, and 61 Cygni? From VM Wed Aug 12 17:21:18 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1790" "Tue" "11" "August" "1998" "23:01:29" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "48" "RE: starship-design: Interstellar Probes" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1790 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17839 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 17:11:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17824 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 17:11:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000001bdc5a5$e2eb7780$1d5b31cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <35D08DAF.434E@sunherald.infi.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Cc: "Starship Design" Subject: RE: starship-design: Interstellar Probes Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 23:01:29 -0500 Kyle, You weren't being fair, you simply quoted from NASA's "Warp Drive When?" page. A 2 kg probe is in the starwisp class and we already know how to get one of those up to 30 percent of lightspeed with virtually no fuel. that would put it passing through any of these systems within fifty to a hundred years. Well, maybe not 61 Cygni... Lee -----Original Message----- From: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu [mailto:owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu]On Behalf Of Kyle R. Mcallister Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 1998 1:30 PM To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Interstellar Probes Gene Marlin wrote: > > Using current and near-term technology, how fast could we get a 2 > kilogram probe to nearby stars such as Tau Ceti, Epsilon Eridani, > Proxima Centauri, and 61 Cygni? Depends on what kind of propulsion you use. To get it there fast is virtually impossible with current technology. To give you an example of how bad it really is, this is how much it would take to send a school bus sized payload past Alpha Centauri in 900 years: Propellant: Specific Imp.: Fuel mass: ======================================================= Chemical 500 10^137kg (not enough mass in universe) Nuclear fission 5000 10^17kg (a billion supertankers) Nuclear fusion 10000 10^11kg (a thousand supertankers) Antimatter 50000 10^5kg (ten railway tankers) If you want to get there faster that 900 years, it gets worse. If you want to actually stop at the destination, it gets even worse. That's why I don't believe we will make it with any of these propulsion systems. It would be better for a 2 kg probe, but not good. Kyle R. Mcallister From VM Thu Aug 13 09:42:30 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["260" "Wed" "12" "August" "1998" "20:13:35" "-0500" "Gene Marlin" "rmarlin@network-one.com" nil "5" "Re: starship-design: Interstellar Probes" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 260 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA06003 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 18:18:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netra1.network-one.com (netra1.network-one.com [209.149.88.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA05993 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 18:18:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from marlin ([209.149.88.207]) by netra1.network-one.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with SMTP id AAA157F for ; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 20:18:36 -0500 Message-ID: <35D23DBE.6BC2@network-one.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <000001bdc5a5$e2eb7780$1d5b31cc@lparker> <35D13A53.BCC@sunherald.infi.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Gene Marlin From: Gene Marlin Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Interstellar Probes Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 20:13:35 -0500 > What can you put in a 2kg package that will justify the expense? If > nanotech procedes, there is hope, but if not... It is a thought experiment. And you could put a radio beacon in there to justify the expense. TV signals may not be reaching nearby stars. From VM Thu Aug 13 09:42:30 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1514" "Wed" "12" "August" "1998" "23:24:18" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "40" "Re: Re: starship-design: Interstellar Probes" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1514 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA29039 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 20:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA29028 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 20:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 2TMGa04520 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 23:24:18 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: Re: starship-design: Interstellar Probes Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 23:24:18 EDT In a message dated 8/11/98 11:37:56 AM, stk@sunherald.infi.net wrote: >Gene Marlin wrote: >> >> Using current and near-term technology, how fast could we get a 2 >> kilogram probe to nearby stars such as Tau Ceti, Epsilon Eridani, >> Proxima Centauri, and 61 Cygni? > >Depends on what kind of propulsion you use. To get it there fast is >virtually impossible with current technology. > >To give you an example of how bad it really is, this is how much it >would take to send a school bus sized payload past Alpha Centauri in 900 >years: > >Propellant: Specific Imp.: Fuel mass: >======================================================= >Chemical 500 10^137kg (not enough mass in >universe) >Nuclear fission 5000 10^17kg (a billion >supertankers) >Nuclear fusion 10000 10^11kg (a thousand >supertankers) >Antimatter 50000 10^5kg (ten railway tankers) > >If you want to get there faster that 900 years, it gets worse. If you >want to actually stop at the destination, it gets even worse. That's why >I don't believe we will make it with any of these propulsion systems. It >would be better for a 2 kg probe, but not good. > >Kyle R. Mcallister Actually the numbers for a couple hundred thousand ton ship with a max speed of .4 light (with a external Boost to speed) was 25 million tons, not billions of tons. Thou carrying the accel and decel fuel internally would add several 0's. Kelly From VM Thu Aug 13 09:42:30 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1034" "Wed" "12" "August" "1998" "22:35:38" "-0700" "Kyle R. Mcallister" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "29" "[Fwd: Re: starship-design: Interstellar Probes]" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1034 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01830 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 20:38:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA01822 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 20:38:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OEMComputer (pm3-153.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.153]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA14530 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 23:38:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35D27B2A.4168@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: [Fwd: Re: starship-design: Interstellar Probes] Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 22:35:38 -0700 Message-ID: <35D26C68.5B1E@sunherald.infi.net> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 21:39:40 -0700 From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Reply-To: stk@sunherald.infi.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.com Subject: Re: starship-design: Interstellar Probes References: <35D05DBB.558C@network-one.com> <3.0.1.32.19980812092445.007a5580@pop.xs4all.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Timothy van der Linden wrote: > I'm not so sure whether the numbers in the table are correct, however the > table does depict an important characteristics: (Kyle, next time you do > calculations please include some rough guide of how you got the numbers.) Didn't do the caluculations, they were from a NASA web page. > Increasing the Isp to more than 3E5 seconds (exhaust velocities of more > than 1% of the speed of light) will be necessary before any serious probe > will be sent. Agreed. Kyle R. Mcallister From VM Thu Aug 13 09:42:30 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4669" "Thu" "13" "August" "1998" "12:01:18" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "Shealiak@XS4ALL.nl" nil "104" "starship-design: SD subjects" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 4669 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA02363 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 06:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.xs4all.nl (smtp3.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.53]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA02350 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 06:15:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tim (dc2-modem2181.dial.xs4all.nl [194.109.136.133]) by smtp3.xs4all.nl (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA17553 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:15:32 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980813120118.007be100@pop.xs4all.nl> X-Sender: shealiak@pop.xs4all.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) In-Reply-To: <000001bdc659$feeee520$515b31cc@lparker> References: <3.0.1.32.19980812092445.007a5580@pop.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Timothy van der Linden From: Timothy van der Linden Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: SD subjects Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:01:18 +0100 At 20:30 12-08-98 -0500, L. Parker wrote: >Timothy et al, > >First of all, Kyle, didn't compute the numbers, so don't blame him. They >come form NASA's "Warp Drive When" page which is a converted slide from a >presentation done several years ago. > >For the lay public this presentation (and hence, this site) provides an >excellent review of just how difficult a problem we face. However, as >Timothy points out, these figures are (were) based on certain assumptions >which are not necessarily valid. It is theoretically possible to reach ISP's >as high as the ones given for antimatter without resorting to a pure >antimatter reaction, which we don't know how to do anyway. > >Second, the ISP's given for antimatter are estimates based on theory - there >is no actual proof that these figures are correct. They may be higher or >lower. > >Third, no allowance is made in these figures for any sort of enhancement >which might increase the ISP. > >Of course, the purpose of the site is to point out that we need something >better - a "Warp Drive". Lee Parker wrote: >Meanwhile, all we can do is continue to plan for >what we know how to do. I might point out that ninety percent of the design >will remain the same no matter what the drive is. The change is in gross >mass and mission duration, so why don't we focus on the rest of it? Excellent, this used to be at least half of the lists messages several years ago. Maybe the newer members like to write down some of their ideas about it, and surprise the "old gang". The following is a compilation of the subjects suggested by David Levine the originator of this list. I've used his descriptions as closely possible while trying to create a compact overview. (The original descriptions can be found in the Starship Design mail-archives.) Engineering Design Group - Propulsion: The main method of interstellar travel. What is technically possible? How much energy do we have? Or how much are we willing to use? How long do we want the trip to last? - Structures: The design of the basic structure of the starship. We will have to consider several different configurations for several different possible propulsion types. - Shielding: The method of shielding the vessel from debris and radiation. Mission Operations Group - Target Selection: How far is the target to be? Do we think the journey should be accomplished in a human lifetime? In a crewmember's lifetime, or the lifetime of someone on Earth? Should we choose a star similar to the sun? Or one in which we are fairly certain there is a planetary system? - Navigation - Mission Objectives: We also need to consider if we will be stopping at this system or just flying through. Will we be returning to Earth? Continuing on to another star? Or staying at the target? - Starship Operating Procedures Support Systems Group - Crew Selection: How do we decide who is to be sent on this mission? Is the trip to be one way or two? How long will it take? Do we have to consider future generations on the trip, or just this one? - Ship-Astronaut Interaction: The design of the interactive aspects of the vehicle: How will it be controlled? How will those controls be designed? This is partly ergonomics, but there are other Human Factors issues, as well. We must consider many things: will the astronauts experience free-fall or gravity? If gravity, how much? If this ship is multigenerational, how will the descendents be different from the original crew of the vehicle? Will they be taller? Will they be less physically strong? How will this affect their ability to use the same control system their ancestors did? Very few control systems have been used for as long as these will need to be. Will they be efficient? Will they last? - Habitation Systems: The design of the living areas of the astronauts. Again, these are places that will have to be lived in for at least a few years, and possibly centuries. We have to concern ourselves with the mental well-being of the crew, as well as the possibility that in a multigenerational voyage, the descendents of the crew may be different from their ancestors. - Computer Systems - Secure Systems - Payload - Science Studies: What type of science we will be doing while we are en route, and when we get to our destination. And we have to look at _how_ this science will be accomplished. What kind of instruments? Will we carry any Voyager- or Viking-like probes? How will they be designed? Speculative Studies Group - Encountering extraterrestrials (intelligent, dumb, macro or micro organisms) Other unknowns, not part of the other groups. From VM Fri Aug 14 09:38:08 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["637" "Fri" "14" "August" "1998" "00:06:24" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "19" "Re: Re: starship-design: Freedom city ship" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 637 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA09590 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:06:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA09572 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:06:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 2YJQa04179 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:06:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4c6eb1eb.35d3b7c2@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: Re: starship-design: Freedom city ship Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:06:24 EDT In a message dated 8/11/98 10:46:24 PM, stk@sunherald.infi.net wrote: >> None of the Mars coloinization concepts offer a plausibly way the Colony could >> pay its way (colonies and cities that arn't profitable become ghost towns), >> this flosting city can, and its: cheaper, more accesable, has a greater >> surface area to colonize, and far less servicing and transport problems. > >Ah, I understand. I thought you were adverse to exploring Mars. >Colonizing it also does not make much sense to me. No exploring anywhere is a good idea, but you don't settle there without a reason and a cash flow. ;) >Kyle R. Mcallister Kelly From VM Fri Aug 14 13:37:28 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2561" "Fri" "14" "August" "1998" "10:43:23" "+0200" "Bjorn Nilsson" "f96bni@student.tdb.uu.se" nil "74" "RE: starship-design: Interstellar Probes " "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2561 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03592 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03568 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:28:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: f96bni@sabik.tdb.uu.se In-Reply-To: <000201bdc70d$a4cad360$515b31cc@lparker> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Bjorn Nilsson From: Bjorn Nilsson Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "L. Parker" cc: Starship Design Subject: RE: starship-design: Interstellar Probes Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:43:23 +0200 (MET DST) On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, L. Parker wrote: > Bjorn, > > Umm, yes, no, maybe.... > > It is possible to use a star's magnetic field to swing a probe around a star > and onto a different trajectory (even a reciprocal). The actual amount of > deflection possible is determined by the velocity of the probe and the > strength of the magnetic field of the star in question. Obviously, the > higher the velocity the less deflection or steering that can be > accomplished. I assume you're actually refering to the GRAVITATIONAL field or else you've got me really lost... :/ Now how high Velocity could our probe have if we want it to do a 180??? Does anyone know the equation? > > But you still have to stop it when it gets home. Of course, but then you'll have access to whatever machinery was used to launch it. That's got to be a big advantage? :) > > In our discussions, we have been able to pretty much agree that there are > several viable methods of accelerating a ship up about .3 or maybe even .4 > c. Unfortunately, these methods almost always rely on some trick which > cannot be provided at the other end to slow the vehicle down. Simply > doubling onboard reaction mass or fuel is not the answer. If you do the math > you will discover that doubling the mass of the vehicle will decrease the > cruise velocity significantly and drastically increase mission length. Yeah, you'll have to accelerate the propellant too :( > > Propulsion wise, what we need as a BARE MINIMUM is a self contained > accelerate/decelerate capability in the 100,000 m/sec range, or put another > way, a 200,000 m/sec total change in delta v. This would enable us to reach > the nearer stars within the lifespan of a single person (but not necessarily > to return within one person's lifetime.) > > I am working from memory here, but I think the best we can currently manage > is only 200 m/sec, which is quite a bit shy of the minimum. We may be able > to reach 100,000 m/sec buy combining several different systems i.e. a > powered perihelion maneuver with a maser sail last stage, but this is again, > only one way. > > Lee > I just have a funny feeling that there is something that I/we have missed... There just might be some way of using all these Magnetic fields, sheets and pauses to provide SOME sort of brakeing :| Or what about brakeing via a solar sail? Or (worst-case and ONLY for a really tough probe) what about hard-landing it??? These are just some wild guesses but there's GOT to be something we can work with??? Bjorn Ever so Hopefull... From VM Fri Aug 14 14:37:13 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["614" "Fri" "14" "August" "1998" "14:02:55" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu" nil "10" "starship-design: misdirected postings" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 614 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17117 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17109; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:02:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <13780.42495.727974.723759@darkwing.uoregon.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.59 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: misdirected postings Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:02:55 -0700 (PDT) When I sent out some of the postings that initially failed to deliver Tuesday night because of problems on lists.uoregon.edu, I apparently sent them out with the address owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu in the headers. I've sent out a couple more postings that came back to me as a result of this, but this time made sure to edit the correct address into the headers. Please check any replies you make to postings to make sure they are going to starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, and not owner-starship-design, so that your postings won't be delayed from me having to manually forward them into the list. From VM Fri Aug 14 14:37:13 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1623" "Thu" "13" "August" "1998" "17:56:44" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "34" "RE: starship-design: Interstellar Probes " "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1623 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16012 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:59:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16001 for starship-design@lists; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000201bdc70d$a4cad360$515b31cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Bjorn Nilsson" Cc: "Starship Design" Subject: RE: starship-design: Interstellar Probes Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:56:44 -0500 Bjorn, Umm, yes, no, maybe.... It is possible to use a star's magnetic field to swing a probe around a star and onto a different trajectory (even a reciprocal). The actual amount of deflection possible is determined by the velocity of the probe and the strength of the magnetic field of the star in question. Obviously, the higher the velocity the less deflection or steering that can be accomplished. But you still have to stop it when it gets home. In our discussions, we have been able to pretty much agree that there are several viable methods of accelerating a ship up about .3 or maybe even .4 c. Unfortunately, these methods almost always rely on some trick which cannot be provided at the other end to slow the vehicle down. Simply doubling onboard reaction mass or fuel is not the answer. If you do the math you will discover that doubling the mass of the vehicle will decrease the cruise velocity significantly and drastically increase mission length. Propulsion wise, what we need as a BARE MINIMUM is a self contained accelerate/decelerate capability in the 100,000 m/sec range, or put another way, a 200,000 m/sec total change in delta v. This would enable us to reach the nearer stars within the lifespan of a single person (but not necessarily to return within one person's lifetime.) I am working from memory here, but I think the best we can currently manage is only 200 m/sec, which is quite a bit shy of the minimum. We may be able to reach 100,000 m/sec buy combining several different systems i.e. a powered perihelion maneuver with a maser sail last stage, but this is again, only one way. Lee From VM Fri Aug 14 16:07:48 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1139" "Thu" "13" "August" "1998" "11:30:16" "+0200" "Bjorn Nilsson" "f96bni@student.tdb.uu.se" nil "29" "RE: starship-design: Interstellar Probes " "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1139 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05970 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05946 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:02:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: f96bni@sabik.tdb.uu.se In-Reply-To: <000101bdc5a5$e6b8fa40$1d5b31cc@lparker> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Bjorn Nilsson From: Bjorn Nilsson Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "L. Parker" cc: Gene Marlin , Starship Design Subject: RE: starship-design: Interstellar Probes Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:30:16 +0200 (MET DST) On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, L. Parker wrote: > Gene, > > Robert Forward proposed an interstellar probe based on a perforated sail > design combined with gravity assist and beamed microwave power. The payload > was to be 4 grams of intelligent microcircuitry embedded within the actual > structure of the craft - something that is not so far fetched any more - we > actually know how to do this! > Forward's calculations showed that we could accelerate starwisp (his name > for it) to 20 percent of the speed of light within only a few days. This > would deliver the probe to Alpha Centauri within about twenty years. > > You must note however, that this is a "flyby" at twenty percent of the speed > of light with a very limited payload and extremely limited data return. It > may not be very useful, especially in light of what we can potentially see > from Earth orbit with advanced optics. > Excuse my Ignorance but wouldn't it be possible to Use the target Star's Gravity to "swing" the probe around and into a return orbit to Earth (or at least close enough to our solar system to be recovered in some way.) Just curious... Bjorn From VM Fri Aug 14 16:20:46 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["861" "Fri" "14" "August" "1998" "17:39:41" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "30" "RE: starship-design: Interstellar Probes " "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 861 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05765 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05745 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:01:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000c01bdc7d4$6dc0fbc0$515b31cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Bjorn Nilsson" Cc: "Starship Design" Subject: RE: starship-design: Interstellar Probes Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 17:39:41 -0500 Bjorn, > I assume you're actually refering to the GRAVITATIONAL field or else > you've got me really lost... :/ > > Now how high Velocity could our probe have if we want it to do a 180??? > > Does anyone know the equation? Yes, I meant MAGNETIC. It's called Lorentz Force Turning. A charged object moving through a magnetic field experiences a force at right angles ti its direction of motion and the magnetic field. The magnitude of the force is described by the equation: |Fbar| = |QVbar * Bbar| = QVBsin theta where Q is the charge on the object, Bbar is the magnetic field vector, Vbar is the velocity vector, and theta is the angle between Vbar and Bbar. Skipping a bit of math involving the application of Newton's Second Law, this can be reduced to: r = mV/QB where r is the radius of the orbit, m is the object's mass. Hope this helps Lee From VM Mon Aug 17 09:31:34 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["902" "Sun" "16" "August" "1998" "14:35:49" "-0700" "N. Lindberg" "nlindber@u.washington.edu" nil "17" "starship-design: Staged Fusion Power" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 902 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24073 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 14:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (root@jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA24033 for ; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 14:35:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dante21.u.washington.edu (nlindber@dante21.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.71]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id OAA30380 for ; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 14:35:49 -0700 Received: from localhost (nlindber@localhost) by dante21.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id OAA90782 for ; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 14:35:49 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "N. Lindberg" From: "N. Lindberg" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship design Subject: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 14:35:49 -0700 (PDT) I was reading some of the numbers for the various engines that could be used to power a starship, and I noticed that every fusion reaction shown only used its fuel once. If a closed powerplant (not rocket) could be run hot enough, there's no reason I can see not to run the fuel up to heavier elements instead of just throwing it away after it turns to helium. Note: I didn't do any math for this one, it might be impractical. Although I realize that a scheme like this would require reactors far superior to a today's can't-quite-ignite tokamaks, it might be doable in fifty years. The power from this type of reactor could be used to power a laser or ion drive, the latter prehaps adding the reactor exhaust to the Xenon reaction mass. The upshot is, exhaust recycling could reduce the amount of fuel required by which is one of the major hurdles of starflight. Best Regards, Nels Lindberg From VM Mon Aug 17 09:31:34 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1065" "Sun" "16" "August" "1998" "16:56:08" "-0600" "Zach Johnson" "zachjo@ibm.net" nil "25" "Re: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1065 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA11278 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 15:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA11266 for ; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 15:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ibm.net (slip166-72-169-148.mt.us.ibm.net [166.72.169.148]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA39964; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 22:58:26 GMT Message-ID: <35D76388.7262D583@ibm.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zach Johnson From: Zach Johnson Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "N. Lindberg" CC: starship design Subject: Re: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 16:56:08 -0600 N. Lindberg wrote: > I was reading some of the numbers for the various engines that > could be used to power a starship, and I noticed that every fusion > reaction shown only used its fuel once. If a closed powerplant (not > rocket) could be run hot enough, there's no reason I can see not to run > the fuel up to heavier elements instead of just throwing it away after it > turns to helium. Note: I didn't do any math for this one, it might be > impractical. Although I realize that a scheme like this would require > reactors far superior to a today's can't-quite-ignite tokamaks, it might > be doable in fifty years. The power from this type of reactor could be > used to power a laser or ion drive, the latter prehaps adding the > reactor exhaust to the Xenon reaction mass. > The upshot is, exhaust recycling could reduce the amount of fuel > required by which is one of the major hurdles of starflight. > Best Regards, > Nels Lindberg Could you combine fusion and fission to produce a continuos reaction? From, Zachary Johnson From VM Mon Aug 17 09:31:34 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1064" "Sun" "16" "August" "1998" "16:55:27" "-0600" "Zach Johnson" "zachjo@ibm.net" nil "25" "Re: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1064 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA11145 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 15:57:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA11132 for ; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 15:57:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ibm.net (slip166-72-169-148.mt.us.ibm.net [166.72.169.148]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA141876; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 22:57:47 GMT Message-ID: <35D7635F.9788191D@ibm.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zach Johnson From: Zach Johnson Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "N. Lindberg" CC: starship design Subject: Re: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 16:55:27 -0600 N. Lindberg wrote: > I was reading some of the numbers for the various engines that > could be used to power a starship, and I noticed that every fusion > reaction shown only used its fuel once. If a closed powerplant (not > rocket) could be run hot enough, there's no reason I can see not to run > the fuel up to heavier elements instead of just throwing it away after it > turns to helium. Note: I didn't do any math for this one, it might be > impractical. Although I realize that a scheme like this would require > reactors far superior to a today's can't-quite-ignite tokamaks, it might > be doable in fifty years. The power from this type of reactor could be > used to power a laser or ion drive, the latter prehaps adding the > reactor exhaust to the Xenon reaction mass. > The upshot is, exhaust recycling could reduce the amount of fuel > required by which is one of the major hurdles of starflight. > Best Regards, > Nels Lindberg Could you combine fusion and fision to produce a continous reaction? From, Zachary Johnson From VM Mon Aug 17 09:31:34 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1607" "Sun" "16" "August" "1998" "18:43:51" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "45" "RE: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1607 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA22294 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 16:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA22230 for ; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 16:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p238.gnt.com [204.49.89.238]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id SAA32326; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 18:48:03 -0500 Message-ID: <000301bdc96f$b9869640$e45931cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <35D7635F.9788191D@ibm.net> Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Zach Johnson" Cc: "Starship Design" Subject: RE: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 18:43:51 -0500 Nels and Zach, While the idea is doable (Project Dumbo, 1960 something) The output is far below what we can achieve through other means. There is a lot of energy loss to waste heat, etc. Check the site I uploaded on AIMSTAR and antimatter catalyzed microfusion. Lee -----Original Message----- From: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu [mailto:owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu]On Behalf Of Zach Johnson Sent: Sunday, August 16, 1998 5:55 PM To: N. Lindberg Cc: starship design Subject: Re: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power N. Lindberg wrote: > I was reading some of the numbers for the various engines that > could be used to power a starship, and I noticed that every fusion > reaction shown only used its fuel once. If a closed powerplant (not > rocket) could be run hot enough, there's no reason I can see not to run > the fuel up to heavier elements instead of just throwing it away after it > turns to helium. Note: I didn't do any math for this one, it might be > impractical. Although I realize that a scheme like this would require > reactors far superior to a today's can't-quite-ignite tokamaks, it might > be doable in fifty years. The power from this type of reactor could be > used to power a laser or ion drive, the latter prehaps adding the > reactor exhaust to the Xenon reaction mass. > The upshot is, exhaust recycling could reduce the amount of fuel > required by which is one of the major hurdles of starflight. > Best Regards, > Nels Lindberg Could you combine fusion and fision to produce a continous reaction? From, Zachary Johnson From VM Mon Aug 17 09:31:34 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1857" "Sun" "16" "August" "1998" "19:12:58" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "34" "Re: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1857 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21767 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 19:13:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hexadecimal.uoregon.edu (hexadecimal.uoregon.edu [128.223.32.56]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA21759 for ; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 19:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [204.214.99.68]) by hexadecimal.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA04594; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 19:12:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA13691; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 19:13:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <13783.37290.295518.490793@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <35D7635F.9788191D@ibm.net> References: <35D7635F.9788191D@ibm.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.59 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Zach Johnson Cc: "N. Lindberg" , starship design Subject: Re: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 19:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Zach Johnson writes: > N. Lindberg wrote: > > > I was reading some of the numbers for the various engines that > > could be used to power a starship, and I noticed that every fusion > > reaction shown only used its fuel once. If a closed powerplant (not > > rocket) could be run hot enough, there's no reason I can see not to run > > the fuel up to heavier elements instead of just throwing it away after it > > turns to helium. Note: I didn't do any math for this one, it might be > > impractical. Although I realize that a scheme like this would require > > reactors far superior to a today's can't-quite-ignite tokamaks, it might > > be doable in fifty years. The power from this type of reactor could be > > used to power a laser or ion drive, the latter prehaps adding the > > reactor exhaust to the Xenon reaction mass. > > The upshot is, exhaust recycling could reduce the amount of fuel > > required by which is one of the major hurdles of starflight. > > Best Regards, > > Nels Lindberg > > Could you combine fusion and fision to produce a continous reaction? Well, conservation of energy says that there has to be some limit to that. You should also remember that both fission and fusion conserve nucleons (although beta decay and inverse beta decay may change a neutron into a proton and electron and neutrino, or vice versa). So that puts an even more stringent limit on the amount of energy you could get; no matter what happens, the energy tied up in the nucleon's masses is never released, only the binding energy holding them together. One problem with a multi-element fusion reactor is that it takes progressively higher temperatures and pressures to induce fusion in heavier nuclei. So the cost of fusing the heavier elements may not be well offset by the additional energy provided. From VM Mon Aug 17 09:31:34 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1356" "Sun" "16" "August" "1998" "23:24:33" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "34" "Re: RE: starship-design: Interstellar Probes" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1356 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA05495 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 20:25:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA05486 for ; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 20:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id ELKAa11435; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 23:24:33 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: <5c6e49fb.35d7a272@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: rmarlin@network-one.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: RE: starship-design: Interstellar Probes Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 23:24:33 EDT In a message dated 8/14/98 6:06:37 PM, f96bni@student.tdb.uu.se wrote: >On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, L. Parker wrote: > >> Gene, >> >> Robert Forward proposed an interstellar probe based on a perforated sail >> design combined with gravity assist and beamed microwave power. The payload >> was to be 4 grams of intelligent microcircuitry embedded within the actual >> structure of the craft - something that is not so far fetched any more - we >> actually know how to do this! >> Forward's calculations showed that we could accelerate starwisp (his name >> for it) to 20 percent of the speed of light within only a few days. This >> would deliver the probe to Alpha Centauri within about twenty years. >> >> You must note however, that this is a "flyby" at twenty percent of the speed >> of light with a very limited payload and extremely limited data return. It >> may not be very useful, especially in light of what we can potentially see >> from Earth orbit with advanced optics. >> > >Excuse my Ignorance but wouldn't it be possible to Use the target Star's >Gravity to "swing" the probe around and into a return orbit to Earth (or >at least close enough to our solar system to be recovered in some way.) > >Just curious... Not at those speeds. When you get up to fractions of light speed, gravity manuvers need close apraoches to a black hole. Kelly From VM Mon Aug 17 09:31:34 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1609" "Sun" "16" "August" "1998" "23:24:30" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "55" "Re: RE: starship-design: Interstellar Probes" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1609 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA05481 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 20:25:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo30.mx.aol.com (imo30.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.74]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA05475 for ; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 20:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo30.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 2PVNa12042 for ; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 23:24:30 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: RE: starship-design: Interstellar Probes Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 23:24:30 EDT In a message dated 8/14/98 4:07:10 PM, lparker@cacaphony.net wrote: >In our discussions, we have been able to pretty much agree that there are > >several viable methods of accelerating a ship up about .3 or maybe even .4 > >c. Unfortunately, these methods almost always rely on some trick which > >cannot be provided at the other end to slow the vehicle down. Simply > >doubling onboard reaction mass or fuel is not the answer. If you do the math > >you will discover that doubling the mass of the vehicle will decrease the > >cruise velocity significantly and drastically increase mission length. > > > >Propulsion wise, what we need as a BARE MINIMUM is a self contained > >accelerate/decelerate capability in the 100,000 m/sec range, or put another > >way, a 200,000 m/sec total change in delta v. This would enable us to reach > >the nearer stars within the lifespan of a single person (but not necessarily > >to return within one person's lifetime.) > > > >I am working from memory here, but I think the best we can currently manage > >is only 200 m/sec, which is quite a bit shy of the minimum. We may be able > >to reach 100,000 m/sec buy combining several different systems i.e. a > >powered perihelion maneuver with a maser sail last stage, but this is again, > >only one way. > > > >Lee > Ah My two concepts used a fuel launcher to boost the ship to speed without internal fuel. or a maaser sail here to accelerate it to speed. Both used onboard fuel to decel it into the target starsystem, and used mined fuel to accelerate it back toward Sol. Round trip time was about 25-30 years. Kelly From VM Mon Aug 17 09:31:34 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2406" "Mon" "17" "August" "1998" "10:21:32" "+0200" "Bjorn Nilsson" "f96bni@student.tdb.uu.se" nil "51" "Re: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2406 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA22135 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 01:21:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sabik.tdb.uu.se (JVyJo18ZuqqtnPu3hY+vzAWz2lBQ+ZVt@sabik.tdb.uu.se [130.238.138.70]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA22130 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 01:21:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (f96bni@localhost) by sabik.tdb.uu.se (8.8.8/8.8.8/STUD_1.1) with SMTP id KAA07773; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:21:32 +0200 (MET DST) X-Sender: f96bni@sabik.tdb.uu.se In-Reply-To: <13783.37290.295518.490793@tzadkiel.efn.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Bjorn Nilsson From: Bjorn Nilsson Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Steve VanDevender cc: starship design Subject: Re: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:21:32 +0200 (MET DST) On Sun, 16 Aug 1998, Steve VanDevender wrote: > Zach Johnson writes: > > N. Lindberg wrote: > > > > > I was reading some of the numbers for the various engines that > > > could be used to power a starship, and I noticed that every fusion > > > reaction shown only used its fuel once. If a closed powerplant (not > > > rocket) could be run hot enough, there's no reason I can see not to run > > > the fuel up to heavier elements instead of just throwing it away after it > > > turns to helium. Note: I didn't do any math for this one, it might be > > > impractical. Although I realize that a scheme like this would require > > > reactors far superior to a today's can't-quite-ignite tokamaks, it might > > > be doable in fifty years. The power from this type of reactor could be > > > used to power a laser or ion drive, the latter prehaps adding the > > > reactor exhaust to the Xenon reaction mass. > > > The upshot is, exhaust recycling could reduce the amount of fuel > > > required by which is one of the major hurdles of starflight. > > > Best Regards, > > > Nels Lindberg > > > > Could you combine fusion and fision to produce a continous reaction? > > Well, conservation of energy says that there has to be some limit > to that. You should also remember that both fission and fusion > conserve nucleons (although beta decay and inverse beta decay may > change a neutron into a proton and electron and neutrino, or vice > versa). So that puts an even more stringent limit on the amount > of energy you could get; no matter what happens, the energy tied > up in the nucleon's masses is never released, only the binding > energy holding them together. > > One problem with a multi-element fusion reactor is that it takes > progressively higher temperatures and pressures to induce fusion > in heavier nuclei. So the cost of fusing the heavier elements > may not be well offset by the additional energy provided. > Actually combining fusion and fission is a total waste... For all elements ligther than Iron (Fe) Fusion produces power and fision costs power... Vice Versa for elements Heavier than Iron. As for using some kinda multi-stage Fusion device I personnaly think that it will both be MUCH simpler (from an engineering POV) and more efficient to just use the fusion products (probably Helium) as reaction mass. Just my 2c Bjorn... From VM Mon Aug 17 09:31:35 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1005" "Mon" "17" "August" "1998" "14:02:12" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "Shealiak@XS4ALL.nl" nil "29" "Re: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1005 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA14023 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 07:10:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.xs4all.nl (smtp1.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.51]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA14011 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 07:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tim (dc2-modem2177.dial.xs4all.nl [194.109.136.129]) by smtp1.xs4all.nl (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA03070 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:10:09 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980817140212.007b0100@pop.xs4all.nl> X-Sender: shealiak@pop.xs4all.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Timothy van der Linden From: Timothy van der Linden Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:02:12 +0100 Hi Nels, Multistaged fusion all the way up to iron should be theoretically possible, but the yield isn't spectacular more than a well chosen single stage: Take: ( I) 1 (2H) + 2 (3He) -> 1 (4He) + 1 (1H) + 18.4 MeV (II) 24 (2H) + 2 (3H) -> 1 (54)Fe + 401.4 MeV 24 (2H) means 24 atoms of Hydrogen, where the Hydrogen has atomic mass 2. Reaction (I) is the most efficient single fusion reaction. Reaction (II) is the short-circuit of the multi stage fusion. The input mass of reaction (I) is 1*2 + 2*3 = 5 The input mass of reaction (II) is 24*2 + 2*3 = 54 So we can repeat reaction (I) 54/5=10.8 times before we've used the same amount of mass as needed for reaction (II). Doing reaction (I) 10.8 times will yield: 10.8*18.4=198.7 MeV So fusing all the way to Iron has a yield (401.4/198.7)=2 times better than fusing merely to light elements. So, all the trouble (eg. higher fusion temperature, unwanted fusion ractions) for a two times higher yield, is likely not worth it. Timothy From VM Mon Aug 17 09:56:18 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["41944" "Sat" "15" "August" "1998" "23:10:22" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "943" "starship-design: FW: SpaceViews Update -- 1998 August 15" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 41944 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28244 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28229 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:41:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA13226 for ; Sat, 15 Aug 1998 21:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p239.gnt.com [204.49.89.239]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id XAA31577 for ; Sat, 15 Aug 1998 23:13:14 -0500 Message-ID: <000201bdc8cb$ca762aa0$e45931cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship Design" Subject: starship-design: FW: SpaceViews Update -- 1998 August 15 Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 23:10:22 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: SpaceViews-approval@nss.org [mailto:SpaceViews-approval@nss.org] Sent: Saturday, August 15, 1998 10:33 AM To: undisclosed-recipients:; Subject: SpaceViews Update -- 1998 August 15 S P A C E V I E W S U P D A T E 1998 August 15 http://www.spaceviews.com/1998/0815/ *** Top Stories *** Titan 4 Explodes After Launch SOHO Spacecraft Condition Improves More Delays for the International Space Station? Soyuz Launches Mir Relief Crew *** Technology *** Possible Antenna Problem with Mars Global Surveyor Japanese Docking Experiment Malfunctions Eight ORBCOMM Satellites Launched Boeing, Air Force Test Space Maneuver Vehicle *** Policy *** Senate Approves Commercial Space Act SEC Files Action Against SpaceDev Government Suspends Sea Launch *** Science *** New Studies Cast Doubt on Mars Life Claims Two Earth-Crossing Asteroids Discovered *** CyberSpace *** CyberSpace Reviews CD-ROM Review: "Russians in Space" *** Space Capsules *** SpaceViews Event Horizon Other News Editor's Note: We Will be switching over to a new mail list service later this month, so that we can better meet the needs of our growing number of subscribers. Because of this, you may have problems trying to unsubscribe or resubscribe in the next couple weeks. If you have any problems, please contact me at jeff@spaceviews.com. Our next issue will be published on September 1. Regards, Jeff Foust Editor, SpaceViews ============= *** Top Stories *** Titan 4 Explodes After Launch An Air Force Titan 4A booster exploded less than a minute after liftoff early Wednesday, August 12, scattering debris into the Atlantic Ocean off the coast from Cape Canaveral, Florida. The booster, carrying a classified military payload, exploded 42 seconds after its 7:30 am EDT (1130 UT) launch. Debris from the explosion fell into the Atlantic Ocean. No injuries or damage were reported. According to the Air Force, the Titan 4A began to self-destruct 42 seconds into the flight. Range safety officers, charged with preventing the rocket from going off course and threatening lives and property, destroyed the rocket two seconds later. The force of the explosion was powerful enough to set off car alarms in the city of Cocoa Beach, well south of the Cape Canaveral launch site, the Associated Press reported. A toxic cloud of fumes from the Titan 4's propellant did form, but drifted northeast away from land and dissipated, Florida Today reported. There was no danger to anyone from the cloud. The launch had been delayed by 90 minutes because of fueling problems. While classified, analysts believe the booster was carrying a signals intelligence satellites valued at up to $1 billion. The satellite, which would have gone into a geosynchronous orbit, would have been capable of intercepting radio and other communications. It was similar to existing signals inteligence satellites. The Titan 4 explosion is the first for that rocket since a launch explosion 5 years ago at Vandenberg Air Force Base, California. The explosion is the first launch accident at Cape Canaveral since a Delta 2 exploded just a few seconds after launch in January 1997. That explosion caused damage to the launch site and nearby buildings, but no injuries. The launch was the last Titan 4A launch planned. The Air Force will be using the upgraded Titan 4B, a more powerful booster, for future missions. The Titan 4B entered service last year and was used to launch the Cassini mission to Saturn last October. SOHO Spacecraft Condition Improves The health of the Solar and Heliospheric Observatory (SOHO) spacecraft, which was out of contact with ground controllers for six weeks, continues to improve, the European Space Agency reported Tuesday, August 11. Engineers received the first on-board telemetry from SOHO over the weekend, ESA reported, and were able to send SOHO commands directing the spacecraft to transfer power generated by its solar cells to its batteries. "This is the best news I've heard since we lost contact with SOHO on 25 June," said Roger Bonnet, ESA science director. "I never gave up hope of some recovery of this fantastic mission. We should just hope that the damage sustained by SOHO's enforced period of deep freeze does not affect the scientific payload too much." Ground controllers first detected signals from SOHO on August 3, the first time the spacecraft was heard from since it went out of contact late June 24. No telemetry was included with those signals, but contact with SOHO over the weekend included information on the voltages and temperatures of the instruments onboard the spacecraft. "I am truly satisfied with the information the data we acquired gives us," said Francis Vanderbussche, in charge of the SOHO recovery team. "Conditions on-board are as good as we expected them to be". Ground controllers instructed SOHO to fully charge its onboard batteries, so it can begin to thaw out its supply of hydrazine fuel used for attitude control. Once thawed, engineers hope to be able to stabilize the slowly-spinning spacecraft. They expect the batteries to be fully charged later this week. NASA's Deep Space Network has declared a "Spacecraft Emergency", giving 24-hours-a-day coverage of SOHO over other missions, so engineers can continue to monitor SOHO's status. Contact was lost with SOHO on the evening of June 24. A preliminary investigation indicates that a combination of errors in preprogrammed ground sequences sent to SOHO, combined with the decision by ground controllers to send a command to the spacecraft after receiving "unexpected" telemetry readings. SOHO is a joint ESA/NASA mission to study the Sun from the Earth-Sun L1 Lagrange point, 1.5 million kilometers (900,000 miles) Sunward of the Earth. It was launched in December 1995 and completed its nominal two-year mission in April of this year. More Delays for the International Space Station? While NASA Administrator Dan Goldin told members of the House Science Committee Wednesday, August 5, that the International Space Station was on track for its first launches this fall, sources within the space agency indicate that the station may be delayed yet again, for up to six months. Acknowledging Russian funding shortfalls, Goldin said plans were underway to modify the shuttle's maneuvering thrusters to allow it reboost the station, a task originally planned for Russian spacecraft, while a Clinton Administration budget official said non-station shuttle flights might be cancelled to cover station cost overruns. A number of reports, including public Internet postings from people at or with contacts at NASA, have claimed that internal NASA schedules have pushed back the launch of the first station elements to April 1999, with the service module pushed back from April to September or October of 1999. While Goldin made no mention of planned delays in the launch schedule in Congressional testimony, he did mention the possibility of future delays. Noting the problems the Russian Space Agency (RSA) has had getting money from the Russian government, he said, "NASA is concerned that the shortfall in funding available to RSA places the scheduled April 1999 launch date of the Russian Service Module at some risk." If true, it would be yet another delay for the station, whose first elements were originally planned for launch last fall. Those launches were delayed first to this summer, then to this November and December, because of problems with the Russian Service Module. According to Goldin, the first station elements are ready for launch as currently scheduled. A Russian Proton booster is set to launch the Zarya ("Sunrise") control module in November, followed by a December launch of shuttle mission STS-88 to deliver the Unity docking node. Goldin acknowledged other problems with the Russian space program, including that production of Soyuz and Progress spacecraft "has virtually ceased" because of a lack of parts. Soyuz spacecraft are scheduled to deliver some crews to the station and serve as a lifeboat in the event of an emergency on the station, while unmanned Progress vehicles would deliver supplies. The Progress vehicles would also periodically reboost the station, whose orbit would be gradually lowered by drag from the tenuous atmosphere is passed through. Goldin said plans are underway to modify the shuttles' maneuvering thrusters to reboost the station, reducing the need for Progress spacecraft. Jacob Lew, the new director of the Office of Management and Budget (OMB), told committee members that the Clinton Administration would first seek to cover space station cost overruns from other sections of the NASA budget related to human space flight, rather than other science and research programs. "We will look for offsets first from within the $6 billion spent annually in the Human Space Flight account, as long as they do not compromise Shuttle safety," Lew said. Such a decision would imply that shuttle flights unrelated to the station could be cancelled. While most shuttle launches during the ISS assembly period are dedicated to the station, a small number -- mostly involving the orbiter Columbia, which is too heavy to loft space station components -- will be dedicated to microgravity, remote sensing, and other missions, including reservicing visits to the Hubble Space Telescope. Member of the committee were skeptical such a plan could work. "I don't believe you can get the money you need by canceling shuttle flights or continuing to raid the shuttle budget," Rep. Dave Weldon (R-FL) said. Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA) was more blunt. "After hearing your review of these costs, I wonder what planet you've been on." Soyuz Launches Mir Relief Crew A Russian Soyuz spacecraft carrying a replacement crew for the Mir space station, as well as a visiting former bureaucrat, lifted off early Thursday, August 13. Soyuz TM-28 lifted off at 5:43 am EDT (0943 UT) from the Baikonur Cosmodrome in Kazakhstan. The launch proceeded normally and the Soyuz is scheduled to dock with Mir on Saturday, August 15. An unmanned Progress cargo spacecraft undocked with Mir on August 12 to allow the Soyuz to dock with Mir. On board the Soyuz are two cosmonauts, commander Gennady Padalka and engineer Sergei Avdeyev, who will relieve the current Mir crew of Talgat Musabayev and Nikolai Budarin, who have been on Mir for six months. Also on board is Nikolai Baturin, a former aide to Russian president Boris Yeltsin. Baturin was originally named to the crew to report on the status of Mir to Yeltsin, but since being removed from his post earlier this year his post-mission plans are uncertain. Baturin will return to Earth with Musabayev and Budarin in Soyuz TM-27, the Soyuz craft currently docked with Mir, after spending 12 days in space. The launch of TM-28 was scheduled for August 3, but was delayed by ten days last month when power and water were shut down to the Baikonur launch site. Unpaid bills, caused by a lack of funding from the Russian government, caused the utility shutdown. This launch was funded by credit extended from a Russian bank. Padalka and Avdeyev will be the next-to-last crew to fly Mir. A relief crew, likely to include one Russian cosmonaut and French and Slovak guest cosmonauts, will fly to the station in early 1999. One or more members of that crew will stay on Mir until mid-1999, when the station is abandoned and reenters the Earth's atmosphere. *** Technology *** Possible Antenna Problem with Mars Global Surveyor A potential problem with the extension mechanism of the high-gain antenna on Mars Global Surveyor (MGS) may delay its deployment next year by up to nine months, impacting the science data returned by the spacecraft, NASA reported Monday, August 10. Engineers believe air bubbles may have formed in viscous fluid in a damper that is used to cushion a spring used to deploy the antenna, located at the end of a two-meter (6.6-foot) boom. The bubbles would keep the damper from working properly, pushing the boom out at high speed before the damper would have any effect. Such a deployment could damage or disable the antenna. "To the best of our knowledge, we could deploy the antenna boom without any adverse effect," said MGS project manager Glenn Cunningham. "However, the forces that the damper and boom would be subjected to as a result of the bubble formation are close enough to the maximum force that they are designed to withstand that we want to take a cautious approach in evaluating the deployment." The antenna is in use now, folded up on the side of the spacecraft. The spacecraft must be turned in order for the antenna to send and receive data, interrupting science observations. Engineers plan to deploy the antenna boom in March 1999, when the spacecraft entered its final orbit after aerobraking. The deployed boom will allow the spacecraft to maintain contact with Earth while continuing observations of Mars. MGS team members are now considering delaying the deployment to after December 1999, when the Mars Polar Lander and Deep Space 2 land on Mars. Deep Space 2, a small "hitchhiker" payload on the lander, will penetrate into the Martian surface and rely on MGS as its only communication link with Earth. If the antenna remains undeployed after March 1999, some science data could not be returned because of the limited communications with Earth. A NASA statement said an estimated 40 percent of the original data would be returned in the first 30 days of observations from its final mapping orbit if the antenna remained undeployed. That figure could be increased, though, through the use of larger receiver antennae on Earth. No decision on antenna deployment will be made before February 1999, Cunningham said. "We have not made any decisions yet, but we want to take a conservative approach in order to protect the mission as fully as possible," he said. The problem is not the first for MGS. The aerobraking procedure was delayed by damage to a hinge on one of its solar panels, causing it to bend beyond its design limits during aerobraking passes in the Martian upper atmosphere. The problem was corrected by slowing down the aerobraking, delaying the insertion of MGS into its mapping orbit by one year to March 1999. Japanese Docking Experiment Malfunctions The second experiment in automated rendezvous and docking between two Japanese spacecraft failed Friday, August 7, and a second attempt to bring the two spacecraft together failed a week later. The two sections of the Engineering Test Satellite VII (ETS-7) separated early Friday morning, August 7. The 2,540 kg (5,590 lbs.) chaser satellite, named Hikoboshi, moved 525 meters (1,730 feet) from the 410 kg (900 lbs.) target satellite, named Orihime. The two spacecraft then moved back together to redock. However, the two spacecraft apparently became misaligned as they attempted to redock, and one of them entered a safe mode, aborting the docking. An attempt to redock the spacecraft later in the day was foiled when Hikoboshi lost high-speed communications contact temporarily. A second attempt to redock the two spacecraft took place Thursday, August 13, but again failed. A large attitude error in the chaser spacecraft, caused by the inproper operation of the jet thrusters on the spacecraft, was blamed for the failure, Japanese engineers said. Engineers originally said the smaller Orihime satellite had only enough power to last 72 hours while undocked from Hikoboshi. Hikoboshi provides power to both satellites while docked. However, both spacecraft seem to have enough power to continue redocking after being separated over a week. The two spacecraft successfully undocked and redocked in July, after separating by a distance of 2 meters (6.6 feet). Future experiments planned to redock the two spacecraft from separations as large as 9 kilometers (5.6 miles). The spacecraft, launched last November, is designed to test automated docking procedures for future use on the International Space Station. The names of the two ETS-7 spacecraft come from an old Japanese tale, where the princess Orihime and her lover Hikoboshi were allowed to meet only once a year. Eight ORBCOMM Satellites Launched A Pegasus XL booster launched eight ORBCOMM communications satellites into low-Earth orbit Sunday, August 2, bringing the global messaging service system more than halfway to completion. The Orbital Sciences Corporation (OSC) Pegasus XL was dropped from its L-1011 carrier aircraft at 12:24pm EDT (1624 UT) August 2, while flying over the Atlantic Ocean east of Wallops Island, Virginia. OSC reported August 3 that all eight satellites launched by the Pegasus appeared to be operating normally. The satellites, placed in an orbit 825 kilometers (510 miles) above the Earth at an inclination of 45 degrees, join twelve others previously launched. The new satellites will undergo several months of tests before going into commercial service, OSC said. Each satellite in the system weights about 40 kg (90 lbs.) and has an eight-year lifetime. When completed, the 36-satellite constellation will provide a low-cost system for sending short messages worldwide. The addition of the eight satellites will increase the total availability of the current system from 9 to 17 hours a day. The next group of eight ORBCOMM satellites will complete factory testing over the next several weeks. They are scheduled for launch on a Pegasus XL off the West Coast in September. Boeing, Air Force Test Space Maneuver Vehicle The U.S. Air Force and Boeing conducted the first flight test August 11 in New Mexico of the X-40A, a prototype of a future reusable Space Maneuver Vehicle. The X-40A was dropped from a helicopter at an altitude of 2,700 meters (9,000 feet). A parachute deployed to stabilize the vehicle, and was jettisoned once the vehicle was in stable flight. The X-40A then glided to a runway landing using satellite navigation. "I am very pleased with the results of this flight test," said John Fuller, Boeing project manager. "We wanted to validate low-speed handling qualities and demonstrate autonomous approach and landing capability. We did that today." The X-40A is a scale model of the Space Maneuver Vehicle (SMV), a proposed reusable spacecraft that would deliver satellite payloads, perform on-orbit reconnaissance, and other duties. With a wingspan of 3.6 meters (12 feet) and a fuselage length of 6.7 meters (22 feet), the X-40A is 90 percent the size of the SMV. The SMV would be launched into orbit on another rocket, and could stay in orbit for up to a year to perform its tasks. It's designed to then return to Earth, where it could be serviced and launched again within 72 hours. Future tests will more fully explore how the X-40A and SMV would fly in the air and in space. "Our next step will be to demonstrate the vehicle's capabilities, both in the atmosphere and space," Fuller said. *** Policy *** Senate Approves Commercial Space Act The U.S. Senate approved late Thursday, July 30, legislation that would open new opportunities for commercial launch firms in the United States. The Commercial Space Act, H.R. 1702, was approved by unanimous consent by the Senate. The bill allows the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to license the launch and landing of reusable launch vehicles. Currently the FAA is limited to issuing launch licenses. The bill also mandates the use of commercial launch services for most government payloads, the purchase of space science data from private companies, a study on the commercialization of the International Space Station, and improved licensing regulations for remote sensing satellites. The ability to issue launch and reentry licenses was seen by many analysts as the key section of the bill. With new reusable launch vehicles being developed by private industry, such regulation is critical to permit them to be launched from the United States. In one case, Kistler Aerospace, developer of the K-1 reusable launch vehicle, has planned to launch from Australia instead of the United States, thanks to a regulatory environment more conducive to commercial space ventures. Other launch firms have also considered offshore launch sites. "Can you imagine the Wright Brothers flight at Kitty Hawk ever being made if the government told them, `Sure you can fly it, just don't land,'" said Sen. Bob Graham (D-FL), one of the leading supports of the legislation. "The way the law presently exists, commercial companies can launch but cannot land any vehicle returning from space. Only the U.S. government is allowed this privilege." "This is good news for America's commercial space transportation industry, and for the long-term economic and national security of this nation," said Charles Miller, president of ProSpace, a grassroots lobbying group that supported H.R. 1702. "We have been fighting for this legislation for 4 years, and the U.S. Senate was the last major hurdle." The bill was introduced in the House last year, and was approved there in November. The bill moved over to the Senate side, where it was approved by the Commerce Committee in March. A conference committee will now iron out the differences between the House and Senate versions. "I expect the House/Senate conference will be concluded quickly this September, and that the President will sign it into law this Fall," Miller said. SEC Files Action Against SpaceDev The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) announced Thursday, August 6, that it was requesting action against SpaceDev, Inc., claiming the private space exploration company made "false and misleading" statements to the public. SpaceDev, however, denied any wrongdoing and planned to "vigorously contest" the planned SEC action. The SEC, in a request for a public hearing with an administrative law judge, said the publicly-traded company made a number of fraudulent statements, including claiming projected revenues of $10 million and earnings of $2 million in 1998, without noting that those numbers required NASA approval of specific projects. The SEC also said the company erroneously claimed it had a deal with NASA for the use of the space agency's Deep Space Network to communicate with SpaceDev's Near Earth Asteroid Prospector (NEAP) spacecraft, scheduled for launch in 2000. Such administrative hearings usually take place within 60 days, Don Hurl, an official with the SEC's Denver office, told SpaceViews, although legal maneuvering can often delay the hearing. No penalties would result from the hearing, Hurl said, as the SEC was only seeking a cease-and-desist order to keep SpaceDev from making claims that are not "accurate and complete." Of the about four hundred cases a year the SEC handles, Hurl said, a "good number" involve false statements like the SEC's action against SpaceDev. Dan Shea, director of the SEC's Denver office, told the Associated Press that few investors were involved with SpaceDev. "Some people invested in this, but we caught it very quickly," he said. The SEC declined to said how it became aware of SpaceDev's claims, but Hurl told SpaceViews that the SEC generally gets its information from a wide range of sources, including press releases and information posted on the Internet. In a statement issued Friday, August 7, SpaceDev claimed no wrongdoing and planned to fight the SEC. "While the Company disagrees with the views expressed by the SEC in its Order Instituting Proceedings, the Company had attempted to resolve the issues raised by the SEC through a settlement," the statement read. "The Company now intends to vigorously contest the SEC's allegations." SpaceDev president and founder Jim Benson told SpaceViews that the SEC's action was comparable to "shooting at ants with an elephant gun." He said he was confident that the SEC's case would be dismissed. "This is a legitimate, hardworking business," Benson told the Associated Press. "This is a serious effort and it's being taken seriously by the scientific community." SpaceDev is traded on the over-the-counter bulletin board (OTCBB) under symbol SPDV. As of late Wednesday afternoon, August 12, the stock was trading at 1.562, off about 0.25 from its August 7 close. Government Suspends Sea Launch The U.S. State Department has suspended Boeing's license to work with Russian and Ukrainian engineers on the Sea Launch project, effectively bringing the project to a halt just months before its first launch, the Washington Post reported Saturday, August 8. The suspension, which was issued July 27 but not publicly announced, was issued because of lax security Boeing had in its communications between American and Russian and Ukrainian engineers. The Post reported that a government official said the suspension would be lifted once the government's security concerns are met. Russian and Ukrainian engineers working at Sea Launch's offices in Long Beach, California, have left for home in the last few days because of the suspension. The suspension comes at a time when American dealings with foreign companies has come under intense scrutiny, stemming from reports that Chinese officials obtained restricted technical information from an American company in the aftermath of a 1996 explosion of a Chinese booster carrying an American satellite. The Post article said Boeing officials were ill-prepared to deal with the restrictions required by the State Department on communications with Russian and Ukrainian engineers. Boeing might not have been aware of some of the regulations, one industry executive told the Post. A Boeing spokesman said the problems existed from the inception of the project in 1995 through early 1997, when the company brought in additional experts to deal with the flow of technical information. The Sea Launch project is a multinational venture headed up by Boeing to launch payloads from a portable launch site in the ocean. The Ukrainian company KB Yuzhnoye/PO Yuzhmash provides the Zenit booster and Russia's RSC Energia provides an upper stage for the Zenit. Norway's Kvaerner Maritime built the command ship and launch platform, a converted oil-drilling rig. Boeing serves as the "system integrator" for the project. Sea Launch was slated to launch its first booster late this year. The launch will take place in on the Equator in the Pacific, south of Hawaii. Launches from the Equator get the maximum push from the Earth's rotation, requiring less energy from the booster to reach orbit. *** Science *** New Studies Cast Doubt on Mars Life Claims Several independent new studies published this week have added their voices to the growing doubts that a Martian meteorite contains evidence of past Martian life. The work, much of it published in the current issue of the journal Meteoritics and Planetary Sciences, attacks the two-year-old claims of Martian life in meteorite ALH 84001 on several fronts, from the temperature of formation of the meteorite to the shapes of the "nanofossils" seen within it. Researchers at the University of Hawaii reported that studies of carbonate crystals seen in the meteorite show the carbonates formed at high temperatures, not low ones as required for them to be a product of biological processes. Studies of various carbonate crystals under electron and optical microscopes show the disk-shaped carbonates were squeezed in and completely enclosed by rock. This is consistent with their formation from a hot liquid that passed through fissured in the rock, and not with percolation of a low-temperature liquid through the rock. Another group at the University of Arkansas studied a number of Martian and lunar meteorites under a scanning microscope. They found a number of structures in the lunar meteorites that were indistinguishable from features claimed to be "nanofossils" in ALH 84001. Since the Moon has likely been inhospitable to life throughout its history, it casts doubt on claims that the Martian features as fossils of tiny bacteria. Meanwhile, in a paper published in the August 14 issue of Science, a team at the University of Massachusetts has found that a chemical reaction used to explain the existence of microbes deep under the Earth and possible on Mars is not feasible. Scientists had believed that the formation of hydrogen gas in basalt deep underground could support microbes. However, the Massachusetts group found that hydrogen is not formed under those conditions, depriving microbes of a key energy source. The studies are some of many recent assaults on the claim, first announced in August 1996, that ALH 84001 contains evidence of Mars life. While the original team of scientists from NASA's Johnson Space Center and Stanford University continue to believe their claims, an increasing number of scientists are voicing their doubts. "The evidence against life in the Martian meteorite has been steadily accumulating during the past year," said Ed Scott of the Hawaii Institute of of Geophysics and Planetology. John Bradley, an adjunct professor at Georgia Tech who published a separate paper arguing against life in ALH84001 last month, was more blunt. "I do not know of a single other individual who believes it at this point," he said. Still, the announcement, even if incorrect, has focused the attention of the planetary science community on the possibilities of Martian life, and raised awareness in the nascent field of astrobiology. "More scientists than ever before are studying Martian meteorites for clues to past conditions on Mars," said Scott. The reports are also coming out as the founding convention of the Mars Society takes place in Boulder, Colorado. Everett Gibson, a member of the NASA/JSC team that first announced evidence of past life in the meteorite, was scheduled to speak at the conference. Two Earth-Crossing Asteroids Discovered A JPL telescope project designed to search for near-Earth objects has discovered two asteroids whose orbits cross that of the Earth, but astronomers emphasized that these asteroids pose no threat to the planet for at least several decades. The two asteroids, designed 1998 OH and 198 OR2, are notable because of their size. Each is estimated to be 1-3 km (0.6-1.8 mi.) in diameter, enough to cause serious global effects if one struck the Earth. They join about 125 other "potentially hazardous objects", sizable asteroids whose orbits take them near the Earth. Neither asteroid is expected to pose any threat to Earth for the foreseeable future, although follow-up observations will be made to accurately determine their orbits. With current data, they know that one of the asteroids, 1998 OH, can come no closer than 5 million kilometers (3 million miles) to the Earth. The asteroids were discovered using the Near Earth Asteroid Tracking (NEAT) telescope, an automated 1-meter (39-inch) telescope located on the summit of Haleakala, the tallest mountain on the Hawaiian island of Maui. "Our goal is to discover and track all the potentially dangerous asteroids and comets long before they are likely to approach Earth," said NEAT Principal Investigator Eleanor Helin, a JPL astronomer. "The discovery of these two asteroids illustrates how NEAT is doing precisely what it is supposed to do." The discovery came after the NEAT telescope was upgraded last month. "Our upgraded equipment has speeded up the data processing allowing us to analyze up to 40 gigabytes of data each night, equivalent to 1,200 images of the sky," said project manager Steven Pravdo. "This shows that our efforts to find near-Earth objects are paying off." *** CyberSpace *** The Mars Society The Mars Society is a new organization dedicated to the exploration and eventual settlement of Mars, through public outreach, support of government-funded exploration, and future private exploration. The organization's Web site features information on the upcoming founding convention of the society, taking place in August in Boulder, Colorado. There's also an online e-zine, "New Mars", and bulletins on related topics, including efforts to get more funding for future Mars missions. http://www.marssociety.org/ Science@NASA As you might expect, the research performed by NASA scientists spans a wide range of fields. Science@NASA, a Web site by the Marshall Space Flight Center (the same people who have provided previous winners on space weather and microgravity), showcases some current science research, from space science to materials science to Earth observations. The creators of this site have done a great job explaining current research in an interactive and interesting format, so that a visitor doesn't need much background to understand the work presented here and why it is important. http://science.nasa.gov/ go-Ariane If you're looking for information on European space activities, from ESA to private aerospace firms, check out go-Ariane. This site has updated news on ESA, Ariane launches, and related topics, schedules of upcoming launches, historical and technical information, and more. Go-Ariane is one of the leading online resources for European space information. http://www.go-ariane.com/ SETI@home Interested in contributing to the search for extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI)? If you have a PC, consider contributing to SETI@home, a project to help reduce the massive amounts of data collected by SETI observing projects. A screensaver, running at your computer while you're not using it, will help analyze sections of data collected. The software is in the final stages of development, so be sure to check out the Web site for more information about the project and sign up to receive further information as the project gets underway. http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/ CD-ROM Review: "Russians in Space" by The Ultimax Group by Jeff Foust CD-ROMs with information about the American space program are relatively plentiful, but those with information about Soviet and Russian efforts are much more difficult to find. "Russians in Space", a Russian CD-ROM translated into English for sale in the United States, helps fill this gap with a multimedia exploration of Russian and Soviet space history. The CD-ROM is divided into four sections: people, programs, technology, and basics. Each sections includes useful written content in addition to photos and videos. It's the photos and videos that really make this CD-ROM, as they provide imagery not readily available elsewhere for the average space enthusiast, from the launch of an Energia-Buran to a map of the Plesetsk Cosmodrome. The content seems a little hit-and-miss, though: the cosmonauts section includes information on Gagarin and Tereshkova but not Leonov or any of the modern Mir cosmonauts. Some of the section descriptions seem to have suffered a little in the translation from Russian: the "Personalia" (people) section includes section titles "Those Who Made Rockets Fly" and "They Taught Rockets to Fly". The former is about rocket designers and the latter about cosmonauts, although it's not readily obvious. Overall, "Russians in Space" is a good overview of the history of Russian space efforts. The collection of photos, videos, and other information will make this a useful resource for those seeking to learn more about Russian space programs. "Russians in Space" is a hybrid PC/Mac CD-ROM. It can run on PCs with Windows 3.1, 95/98, and NT and requires a 386SX or faster processor, 4MB RAM (8MB recommended), a 2x or faster CD-ROM drive, SVGA graphic card (640x480 with 256 colors or better), and an MPC-compliant sound card. It can run on Macs with System 7.0 or later with a 68030 or faster processor, 4MB RAM (8MB recommended), a 2x or faster CD-ROM, and at least a 256-color display. See http://www.catalog.com/ultimax for more information. The cost is $29.95 plus shipping and handling, with 10% discounts for members of some organizations, including the NSS and The Planetary Society. *** Space Capsules *** SpaceViews Event Horizon August 13-16: Mars Society Founding Convention, Boulder, Colorado August 15: Soyuz TM-28 docks with Mir August 15: Deadline to submit names to be included on the Stardust spacecraft August 24: Delta 3 inaugural launch of the Galaxy 10 satellite from Cape Canaveral, Florida August 25: Ariane 4 launch of the ST-1 satellite from Kourou, French Guiana August 25: Proton launch of the Astra-2A satellite from Baikonur, Kazakhstan October 9-11: Space Frontier Foundation Conference, Los Angeles, California October 29: Launch of shuttle on mission STS-95 (John Glenn flight) Other News NSS Demands Station Changes: As words leaks out of yet more delays in the International Space Station project, the National Space Society is calling for changes in how the project in managed. In a special section of its Web site, the NSS laid out a five-part plan that calls for a decision to remove or keep the Russians in the project, commercialization of the station, and greater interest and involvement by the Clinton Administration. More information and a petition are available at http://www.nss.org/alerts/iss/home.html Cerf Named JPL Visiting Scientist: A computer scientist that has advocated the growth of the Internet throughout the solar system was named as a Distinguished Visiting Scientist at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory Tuesday, August 4. Vint Cerf, a vice president at the telecommunications giant MCI and co-developer of the TCP/IP protocol used to convey Internet traffic, will work with JPL scientists and engineers and other industry experts to develop new protocols for handling communications among spacecraft. "It took 20 years for the Internet to take-off here on Earth," he said. "It's my guess that in the next 20 years, we will want to interact with systems and people visiting the Moon, Mars and possibly other celestial bodies." Stardust Passes One Million Names Mark: More that one million names have been submitted to fly on the Stardust comet sample return mission, the National Space Society reported Thursday, August 6. The names will be etched onto one of two microchips that will be attached to the Stardust spacecraft, scheduled for launch early next year. The spacecraft will fly by the comet Wild-2, collecting samples of cometary particles that will be returned to Earth in 2006. The original signup effort garnered 136,000 signatures last fall. The second microchip was added in a promotion with the NSS in the spring in conjunction with the release of the Paramount and Dreamworks Pictures movie Deep Impact. The deadline for adding names was August 15. New Mars Meteorite Found: Scientists reported last month that they had found a new Mars meteorite, the thirteenth such object found on Earth. The meteorite, found in the Sahara Desert and owned by a private collector, weights 2 kg (4.4 lbs.) and is thought to be a shergotite, the most common class of Mars meteorites. The meteorite is the first Martian once discovered since 1994 and the first discovered outside Antarctica since 1962. Canadian Space Telescope: The Canadian Space Agency is moving forward with plans to build the world's smallest space telescope, the agency announced August 5. The Microvariability and Oscillations of Stars (MOST) project will feature a 50 kg (110 lbs.) satellite with an telescope no bigger than a pie plate to measure rapid oscillations in stars, providing clues to their interior structure and ages. The CSA is providing C$4 million (US$2.6 million) for project, which includes participants from Canada and the United States. Media Watch: John Glenn is on the cover of the August 17 issue of Time magazine. The cover asks if Glenn's upcoming flight is a "gimmick", but concludes, "No, a timely reminder that we can still have beroes."... The September issue of Discover magazine, just hitting newsstands now, features a cover story on "What Should We Do With The Moon?" The article goes over a wide range of possibilities, from industry to tourism, and includes quotes from a wide range of people, from NASA moon advocate Wendell Mendell to Artemis Society head Greg Bennett... What does astronaut Cady Coleman have in common with Bill Cosby, Boston Celtics head coach Rick Pitino, and CEOs of several major corporations? All are graduates of the University of Massachusetts and all promote their alma mater in a radio ad playing on New England radio stations... ============= This has been the August 15, 1998, issue of SpaceViews Update. SpaceViews Update is also available on the World Wide web from the SpaceViews home page: http://www.spaceviews.com/ or via anonymous FTP from ftp.seds.org: /pub/info/newsletters/spaceviews/update/980815.txt For editorial questions and article submissions for SpaceViews or Spaceviews Update, contact the editor, Jeff Foust, at jeff@spaceviews.com/ For questions about the SpaceViews mailing list, please contact spaceviews-approval@ari.net. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ____ | "SpaceViews" (tm) -by Boston Chapter // \ // | of the National Space Society (NSS) // (O) // | Dedicated to the establishment // \___// | of a spacefaring civilization. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From VM Tue Aug 18 07:44:18 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1503" "Mon" "17" "August" "1998" "20:12:01" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "46" "RE: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1503 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA24340 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:18:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA24321 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:18:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p286.gnt.com [204.49.91.46]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id UAA26775; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 20:17:54 -0500 Message-ID: <000501bdca45$348dbbe0$e45931cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980817140212.007b0100@pop.xs4all.nl> Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Timothy van der Linden" Cc: "Starship Design" Subject: RE: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 20:12:01 -0500 Timothy, You seem to have chosen a reaction that is rather poor in terms of energy produced for this comparison. Perhaps you would like to illustrate the same relationship using something like He3 and Li6? Lee -----Original Message----- From: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu [mailto:owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu]On Behalf Of Timothy van der Linden Sent: Monday, August 17, 1998 8:02 AM To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power Hi Nels, Multistaged fusion all the way up to iron should be theoretically possible, but the yield isn't spectacular more than a well chosen single stage: Take: ( I) 1 (2H) + 2 (3He) -> 1 (4He) + 1 (1H) + 18.4 MeV (II) 24 (2H) + 2 (3H) -> 1 (54)Fe + 401.4 MeV 24 (2H) means 24 atoms of Hydrogen, where the Hydrogen has atomic mass 2. Reaction (I) is the most efficient single fusion reaction. Reaction (II) is the short-circuit of the multi stage fusion. The input mass of reaction (I) is 1*2 + 2*3 = 5 The input mass of reaction (II) is 24*2 + 2*3 = 54 So we can repeat reaction (I) 54/5=10.8 times before we've used the same amount of mass as needed for reaction (II). Doing reaction (I) 10.8 times will yield: 10.8*18.4=198.7 MeV So fusing all the way to Iron has a yield (401.4/198.7)=2 times better than fusing merely to light elements. So, all the trouble (eg. higher fusion temperature, unwanted fusion ractions) for a two times higher yield, is likely not worth it. Timothy From VM Tue Aug 18 13:27:47 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1957" "Tue" "18" "August" "1998" "21:15:52" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "Shealiak@XS4ALL.nl" nil "52" "RE: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1957 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23712 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:16:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.xs4all.nl (smtp3.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.53]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA23691 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:16:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tim (dc2-modem2187.dial.xs4all.nl [194.109.136.139]) by smtp3.xs4all.nl (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA24256 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:16:25 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980818211552.007a4e40@pop.xs4all.nl> X-Sender: shealiak@pop.xs4all.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) In-Reply-To: <000501bdca45$348dbbe0$e45931cc@lparker> References: <3.0.1.32.19980817140212.007b0100@pop.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Timothy van der Linden From: Timothy van der Linden Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 21:15:52 +0100 Hello Lee, You requested: >You seem to have chosen a reaction that is rather poor in terms of energy >produced for this comparison. Perhaps you would like to illustrate the same >relationship using something like He3 and Li6? BTW. I just discovered to have made a typo in my last letter, which luckely did not continue in the calculations. I originally wrote: ( I) 1 (2H) + 2 (3He) -> 1 (4He) + 1 (1H) + 18.4 MeV But instead of 2 helium cores one needs only 1. Here the correct version: ( I) 1 (2H) + 1 (3He) -> 1 (4He) + 1 (1H) + 18.4 MeV ------ Here's an example as closely to your choice: - I've switched to the apparently more conventional notation. - I don't know what the result of fusing He3 and Li6 will be. The simplest result would be B9 which is highly unstable (doesn't appear in my table), H1 + Be8 isn't ideal either because Be8 is also very unstable. So let me modify your which into He4 + Li6 -> B10 (III) 1 (He4) + 1 (Li6) -> 1 (B10) + 4.5 MeV The initial weight is 4+6=10, so one can do reaction (III) 54/10=5.4 times before one has used the same weight as reaction (II) Doing reaction (III) 5.4 times will yield: 5.4*4.5MeV=24.3MeV In this case fusing all the way to Iron would have given a 401.4/24.3=16.5 times higher yield. So you may conclude that multi-stage fusion may be worth the effort. I can even think of a multitude of reactions that have much lower yields per unit of weight and which thus would show to be over 100 times worse than fusing all the way to Iron. But this approach is not very useful. We are trying to optimize "ease" and "yield per unit weight". He4+Li6 is harder to fuse than H2+He3 AND has a lower yield per unit of weight, thus two reasons for it being a bad choice. My H2+He3 was one of the best choices according to the mentioned criteria. I think there is no point in trying to find a worst case scenario. If you feel this is not correct, don't hesitate to comment. Timothy From VM Tue Aug 18 15:12:10 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1881" "Tue" "18" "August" "1998" "17:01:57" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "38" "RE: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1881 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA05576 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:02:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA05569 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p224.gnt.com [204.49.89.224]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id RAA30687; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:02:25 -0500 Message-ID: <000001bdcaf3$d1d801e0$e05931cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980818211552.007a4e40@pop.xs4all.nl> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Timothy van der Linden" Cc: "Starship Design" Subject: RE: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:01:57 -0500 Hi Timothy, Try this table: Table I: Fusion Reactions Among Various Light Elements D+D -> T (1.01 MeV) + p (3.02 MeV) (50%) -> He3 (0.82 MeV) + n (2.45 MeV) (50%) <- most abundant fuel -> He4 + about 20 MeV of gamma rays (about 0.0001%; depends somewhat on temperature.) (most other low-probability branches are omitted below) D+T -> He4 (3.5 MeV) + n (14.1 MeV) <-easiest to achieve D+He3 -> He4 (3.6 MeV) + p (14.7 MeV) <-easiest aneutronic reaction "aneutronic" is explained below. T+T -> He4 + 2n + 11.3 MeVHe3+T -> He4 + p + n + 12.1 MeV (51%) -> He4 (4.8) + D (9.5) (43%) -> He4 (0.5) + n (1.9) + p (11.9) (6%) <- via He5 decay p+Li6 -> He4 (1.7) + He3 (2.3) <- another aneutronic reaction p+Li7 -> 2 He4 + 17.3 MeV (20%) -> Be7 + n -1.6 MeV (80%) <- endothermic, not good. D+Li6 -> 2He4 + 22.4 MeV <- also aneutronic, but you get D-D reactions too. p+B11 -> 3 He4 + 8.7 MeV <- harder to do, but more energy than p+Li6 n+Li6 -> He4 (2.1) + T (2.7) <- this can convert n's to T's n+Li7 -> He4 + T + n - some energy As you can see from the table D+He3 is a good candidate for the second stage if you use D+D as the first stage and then somehow manage to fuse the He3 produced before it can escape. Of course you also have to worry about neutrons from the D+D reaction. Too bad we can't use the gamma rays produced in the D+D reaction though... As you said, your notation is a little different but it is understandable. Where did you get the 18.4 MeV though? Notice that most of the reactions in this table produce He4 as a by-product. My first choice would be a straight single stage D+Li6 or p+B11 using antimatter catalysis or muon catalysis to start the reaction. Lee From VM Wed Aug 19 12:49:58 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3270" "Wed" "19" "August" "1998" "13:53:41" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "Shealiak@XS4ALL.nl" nil "66" "RE: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 3270 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08321 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 12:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.xs4all.nl (smtp3.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.53]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA08290 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 12:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tim (dc2-modem2184.dial.xs4all.nl [194.109.136.136]) by smtp3.xs4all.nl (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA04500 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 21:16:36 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980819135341.007cb350@pop.xs4all.nl> X-Sender: shealiak@pop.xs4all.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) In-Reply-To: <000001bdcaf3$d1d801e0$e05931cc@lparker> References: <3.0.1.32.19980818211552.007a4e40@pop.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Timothy van der Linden From: Timothy van der Linden Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:53:41 +0100 Hello again Lee, >Table I: Fusion Reactions Among Various Light Elements >D+D -> T (1.01 MeV) + p (3.02 MeV) (50%) > -> He3 (0.82 MeV) + n (2.45 MeV) (50%) <- most abundant fuel > -> He4 + about 20 MeV of gamma rays (about 0.0001%; depends > somewhat on temperature.) > (most other low-probability branches are omitted below) >D+T -> He4 (3.5 MeV) + n (14.1 MeV) <-easiest to achieve >D+He3 -> He4 (3.6 MeV) + p (14.7 MeV) <-easiest aneutronic reaction > "aneutronic" is explained below. >T+T -> He4 + 2n + 11.3 MeVHe3+T -> He4 + p + n + 12.1 MeV (51%) > -> He4 (4.8) + D (9.5) (43%) > -> He4 (0.5) + n (1.9) + p (11.9) (6%) <- via He5 decay > >p+Li6 -> He4 (1.7) + He3 (2.3) <- another aneutronic reaction >p+Li7 -> 2 He4 + 17.3 MeV (20%) > -> Be7 + n -1.6 MeV (80%) <- endothermic, not good. >D+Li6 -> 2He4 + 22.4 MeV <- also aneutronic, but you > get D-D reactions too. >p+B11 -> 3 He4 + 8.7 MeV <- harder to do, but more energy than p+Li6 >n+Li6 -> He4 (2.1) + T (2.7) <- this can convert n's to T's >n+Li7 -> He4 + T + n - some energy > >As you can see from the table D+He3 is a good candidate for the second stage >if you use D+D as the first stage and then somehow manage to fuse the He3 >produced before it can escape. Of course you also have to worry about >neutrons from the D+D reaction. The first stage D+D->He3+n+3.27MeV does not really add a lot of energy relative to 18.3MeV and as you mention it has a neutron as reaction product which may disturb the second stage so much that the second stage reaction isn't as efficient anymore. (Maybe even more than 3.27MeV less efficient.) I wonder why our tables don't show p+D->He3+5.5MeV it looks like an excellent candidate to be followed by a second stage (as do all single end-product reactions). If this is a valid reaction, it may be followed by my D+He3->He4+p+18.4MeV that would give a yield of 4.78MeV per nucleon. (Fusing upto Fe54 starting with H2 and H3 will give a yield of 7.43MeV per nucleon.) But again I'm not sure if a second stage is as "easy" as we hope, it still is very far away from the current fusion technology. >Too bad we can't use the gamma rays produced in the D+D reaction though... What would you use them for? >As you said, your notation is a little different but it is understandable. >Where did you get the 18.4 MeV though? D+He3 -> He4 (3.6 MeV) + p (14.7 MeV) 3.6+14.7=18.3MeV My 18.4MeV is actually 18.35MeV, so the difference is likely due to rounding errors. >Notice that most of the reactions in this table produce He4 as a by-product. >My first choice would be a straight single stage D+Li6 or p+B11 using >antimatter catalysis or muon catalysis to start the reaction. p+B11 would be better since it doesn't have D+D reactions as D+Li6 has. And a bonus is that both p and B11 are abundant in nature, while D and Li6 are harder to find. The only disadvantage is that it only yields 8.7MeV while its reaction materials consist of already 12 nuclei in total. (0.725MeV per nucleon) I wonder if a second stage reaction could significantly increase this. Regards, Timothy From VM Wed Aug 19 13:24:13 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1717" "Wed" "19" "August" "1998" "13:17:15" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "37" "RE: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1717 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA05216 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:17:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hexadecimal.uoregon.edu (hexadecimal.uoregon.edu [128.223.32.56]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA05184 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:17:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [204.214.99.68]) by hexadecimal.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13174; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:16:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01733; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:17:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <13787.13003.131985.67392@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980819135341.007cb350@pop.xs4all.nl> References: <3.0.1.32.19980818211552.007a4e40@pop.xs4all.nl> <3.0.1.32.19980819135341.007cb350@pop.xs4all.nl> X-Mailer: VM 6.61 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Timothy van der Linden Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Timothy van der Linden writes: > Hello again Lee, > > >Too bad we can't use the gamma rays produced in the D+D reaction though... > > What would you use them for? Raw energy, of course. Gamma rays are high-energy photons. My brief thoughts on the whole fusion power thing are: Any fusion drive that depends on uncommon elements or isotopes probably implies that the fuel has to be gathered ahead of time and stored on board. Deuterium, tritium, helium-3, and so on are not easy to come by and take significant time and energy to refine out of a planetary atmosphere or ocean or the interstellar medium. The main reason such isotopes are considered for fusion power plants on Earth is that the lower cost of fusing them looks attractive even compared to the cost of refining them out of seawater. For spacecraft fuel I really believe that becomes a significant disadvantage. I think the only mitigating factor is that it might not be too expensive to synthesize the uncommon isotopes from the far more abundant common isotopes in order to be able to run the fusion reactor with lower temperatures. I also don't know where you got the fusion reaction that produces iron directly from a bunch of hydrogen and helium, unless it's the abbreviation of a whole bunch of intermediate reactions. If it's possible, it's really darn unlikely to be able to do it all in one step. I could see running a fusion reactor that would allow for a few stages (say fusing from hydrogen up to relatively light stuff like carbon and oxygen). Isn't the most common fusion reaction in the universe the carbon cycle that fuses hydrogen with carbon to produce an unstable nitrogen isotope that decays back into carbon again? From VM Wed Aug 19 14:28:16 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1975" "Wed" "19" "August" "1998" "16:19:19" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "51" "RE: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1975 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA00113 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA00091 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p196.gnt.com [204.49.89.196]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id QAA18941; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:20:12 -0500 Message-ID: <000101bdcbb7$079b16a0$e05931cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980819135341.007cb350@pop.xs4all.nl> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Timothy van der Linden" Cc: "Starship Design" Subject: RE: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:19:19 -0500 Timothy, > The first stage D+D->He3+n+3.27MeV does not really add a lot of energy > relative to 18.3MeV and as you mention it has a neutron as reaction product > which may disturb the second stage so much that the second stage reaction > isn't as efficient anymore. (Maybe even more than 3.27MeV less efficient.) Probably much less. > I wonder why our tables don't show p+D->He3+5.5MeV it looks like an > excellent candidate to be followed by a second stage (as do all single > end-product reactions). If this is a valid reaction, it may be followed by > my D+He3->He4+p+18.4MeV that would give a yield of 4.78MeV per nucleon. > (Fusing upto Fe54 starting with H2 and H3 will give a yield of 7.43MeV per > nucleon.) > But again I'm not sure if a second stage is as "easy" as we hope, it still > is very far away from the current fusion technology. >>Too bad we can't use the gamma rays produced in the D+D reaction though... > What would you use them for? Well, I just hate to see 20 MeV go to waste! >>As you said, your notation is a little different but it is understandable. >>Where did you get the 18.4 MeV though? > D+He3 -> He4 (3.6 MeV) + p (14.7 MeV) > 3.6+14.7=18.3MeV My 18.4MeV is actually 18.35MeV, so the difference is > likely due to rounding errors. Umm, I don't think the 3.6 MeV is usable, that is potential energy bound up in the He4. > p+B11 would be better since it doesn't have D+D reactions as D+Li6 has. And > a bonus is that both p and B11 are abundant in nature, while D and Li6 are > harder to find. The only disadvantage is that it only yields 8.7MeV while > its reaction materials consist of already 12 nuclei in total. (0.725MeV > per nucleon) > I wonder if a second stage reaction could significantly increase this. Li6 is common as mud on the back side of the moon. The D+D reactions are very dependent upon temperature. If the D+Li6 reaction is hot enough there are virtually no D+D reactions and hence very few neutrons. Lee From VM Wed Aug 19 14:37:38 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1605" "Wed" "19" "August" "1998" "16:29:42" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "36" "RE: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1605 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA05607 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:30:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA05600 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:30:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p196.gnt.com [204.49.89.196]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id QAA20016; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:30:31 -0500 Message-ID: <000201bdcbb8$7b26c000$e05931cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 In-Reply-To: <13787.13003.131985.67392@tzadkiel.efn.org> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Steve VanDevender" Cc: "Starship Design" Subject: RE: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:29:42 -0500 Steve and Timothy, > > What would you use them for? > > Raw energy, of course. Gamma rays are high-energy photons. > It would seem that if we could somehow reflect this energy back into the reaction it would provide enough energy to "pump" the reaction. Except of course that unless it was made to reflect back and forth many millions of times, it wouldn't hit anything, even at the core of a dense plasma. Ohh well... > My brief thoughts on the whole fusion power thing are: > > Any fusion drive that depends on uncommon elements or isotopes > probably implies that the fuel has to be gathered ahead of time > and stored on board. Deuterium, tritium, helium-3, and so on are > not easy to come by and take significant time and energy to > refine out of a planetary atmosphere or ocean or the interstellar > medium. The main reason such isotopes are considered for fusion > power plants on Earth is that the lower cost of fusing them looks > attractive even compared to the cost of refining them out of > seawater. For spacecraft fuel I really believe that becomes a > significant disadvantage. I think the only mitigating factor is > that it might not be too expensive to synthesize the uncommon > isotopes from the far more abundant common isotopes in order to > be able to run the fusion reactor with lower temperatures. > Actually, this is one of the driving factors behind colonies on the moon. Both of these elements are very common there and extraction from lunar regolith of relatively concentrated He3 and Li6 using solar power has GOT to be cheaper than extraction from seawater. Lee From VM Thu Aug 20 10:06:29 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2580" "Thu" "20" "August" "1998" "13:10:17" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "Shealiak@XS4ALL.nl" nil "60" "RE: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2580 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA20180 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 08:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.xs4all.nl (smtp3.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.53]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA20167 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 08:34:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tim (dc2-modem2179.dial.xs4all.nl [194.109.136.131]) by smtp3.xs4all.nl (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA17911 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 17:34:43 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980820131017.00795ce0@pop.xs4all.nl> X-Sender: shealiak@pop.xs4all.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) In-Reply-To: <13787.13003.131985.67392@tzadkiel.efn.org> References: <3.0.1.32.19980819135341.007cb350@pop.xs4all.nl> <3.0.1.32.19980818211552.007a4e40@pop.xs4all.nl> <3.0.1.32.19980819135341.007cb350@pop.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Timothy van der Linden From: Timothy van der Linden Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:10:17 +0100 Hello Steve, >Any fusion drive that depends on uncommon elements or isotopes >probably implies that the fuel has to be gathered ahead of time >and stored on board. In the past we calculated that scooping matter during travel in interstellar space would likely get us too little mass. So I indeed assumed that mass would be stored on board or that it would be launched in advance along the track that the starship will follow. >Deuterium, tritium, helium-3, and so on are >not easy to come by and take significant time and energy to >refine out of a planetary atmosphere or ocean or the interstellar >medium. The main reason such isotopes are considered for fusion >power plants on Earth is that the lower cost of fusing them looks >attractive even compared to the cost of refining them out of >seawater. For spacecraft fuel I really believe that becomes a >significant disadvantage. For multiple flights that may be true, but for a single interstellar flight optimizing the fuel may be worth the additional work of refining the wanted isotopes for the fuel. Isolating isotopes may not be easy, but the technology to do it is available. >I think the only mitigating factor is >that it might not be too expensive to synthesize the uncommon >isotopes from the far more abundant common isotopes in order to >be able to run the fusion reactor with lower temperatures. I think another reason that makes isolating or synthesizing special isotopes worth the expenses is that some of the reactions involving less common isotopes may deliver more than 2 times the amount of energy per unit of mass. >I also don't know where you got the fusion reaction that produces >iron directly from a bunch of hydrogen and helium, unless it's >the abbreviation of a whole bunch of intermediate reactions. If >it's possible, it's really darn unlikely to be able to do it all >in one step. In my 8/17 letter I wrote: (II) 24 (2H) + 2 (3H) -> 1 (54)Fe + 401.4 MeV ... Reaction (II) is the short-circuit of the multi stage fusion. I don't actually have/know all the steps in between, but it wasn't my purpose to display what in reality was possible. I merely wanted to compare a single-stage fusion reaction with the best possible way (energy-wise) to get iron. (I could have chosen worse possibilities, that would have strengthened my point that multistage fusion isn't worth the trouble.) My goal was to show that some of the best single stage fusion reactions would not be that much worse than complex and likely hard to realize multi staged fusion reactions. Timothy From VM Thu Aug 20 10:06:29 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["797" "Thu" "20" "August" "1998" "12:26:08" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "Shealiak@XS4ALL.nl" nil "25" "RE: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 797 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA20212 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 08:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.xs4all.nl (smtp3.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.53]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA20173 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 08:34:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tim (dc2-modem2179.dial.xs4all.nl [194.109.136.131]) by smtp3.xs4all.nl (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA17957 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 17:34:47 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980820122608.00798ab0@pop.xs4all.nl> X-Sender: shealiak@pop.xs4all.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) In-Reply-To: <000101bdcbb7$079b16a0$e05931cc@lparker> References: <3.0.1.32.19980819135341.007cb350@pop.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Timothy van der Linden From: Timothy van der Linden Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: starship-design: Staged Fusion Power Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 12:26:08 +0100 Hi Lee, >>>Too bad we can't use the gamma rays produced in the D+D reaction though... >> >> What would you use them for? > >Well, I just hate to see 20 MeV go to waste! But aren't the gamma rays absorbed by the the plasma? >>>As you said, your notation is a little different but it is understandable. >>>Where did you get the 18.4 MeV though? > >> D+He3 -> He4 (3.6 MeV) + p (14.7 MeV) >> 3.6+14.7=18.3MeV My 18.4MeV is actually 18.35MeV, so the difference is >> likely due to rounding errors. > >Umm, I don't think the 3.6 MeV is usable, that is potential energy bound up >in the He4. I'm pretty sure that both the 3.6 and 14.7 MeV are kinetic (heat) energy (since the energy ratio of both particles is exactly what one would expect from their mass ratio). Can anyone confirm this? Timothy From VM Sun Aug 23 16:36:21 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["17086" "Sat" "22" "August" "1998" "07:21:08" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "343" "starship-design: FW: SSRT: Space Access Society Political Alert 8/20/98 (fwd)" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 17086 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA24888 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 05:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA24883 for ; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 05:25:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p237.gnt.com [204.49.89.237]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id HAA09690 for ; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 07:25:47 -0500 Message-ID: <000c01bdcdc7$582752c0$ce5931cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship Design" Subject: starship-design: FW: SSRT: Space Access Society Political Alert 8/20/98 (fwd) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 07:21:08 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: listserv@ds.cc.utexas.edu [mailto:listserv@ds.cc.utexas.edu] On Behalf Of Chris W. Johnson Sent: Friday, August 21, 1998 8:32 PM To: Single Stage Rocket Technology News Subject: SSRT: Space Access Society Political Alert 8/20/98 (fwd) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 17:55:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Donald L Doughty To: delta-clipper@world.std.com Subject: SAS Political Alert, Military Spaceplane Funding - 8/20/98 (fwd) Sender: delta-clipper-approval@world.std.com Reply-To: delta-clipper@world.std.com >Resent-From: hvanderbilt@BIX.com >Resent-To: spacelst@world.std.com Space Access Society Political Alert 8/20/98 "Military Spaceplane" Technology Project Funding ___________________________________________________________________ The impression among many of our advisors a year ago was that we'd just about won, and could all go tend our own gardens. This, alas, has turned out not to be the case. (On a personal note, being burnt out from spending much of the last twelve years at this has gotten boring. - HV) There's work to do. We're back. We were never all that far gone, actually - we've been keeping an eye on developments, butting in once or twice when needed, and of course we put on Space Access '98 this spring, the latest of our annual gettogethers of some of the more interesting players in the cheap access field. (We'll be doing it again next spring; we're currently looking at Friday April 16th through Sunday April 18th - drop us a note ASAP if you know of a major schedule conflict we've missed that weekend; we're close to closing the hotel contract.) The specific thing that's stirred us out of our public silence is a chance to usefully increase the diversity of the US government's reusable launcher technology development efforts. Your help over the next couple weeks can improve the odds of this happening considerably. ___________________________________________________________________ - Summary The USAF Military Spaceplane (MSP) technology project was line-item vetoed last fall. Now that the line-item veto has been tossed out by the courts, we want to see that $10 million in MSP funding for this year restored, and we want to see at least $25 million added for MSP to next years budget. The Congress is in recess until after Labor Day - your Representative and Senators will likely be making appearances locally at "town meetings", Labor Day events etc. You may be able to find an opportunity to ask them personally to support adding at least $25 million for USAF Military Spaceplane research to the FY'99 Defense budget. You can definitely let their DC offices know what you want. ___________________________________________________________________ - Background The USAF "Military Spaceplane" (MSP) technology project grew out of the DC-X program office at Phillips Labs in New Mexico. The project's goal is to put together and test technologies to support eventual development of low-cost fast-turnaround reusable military spacecraft. USAF MSP has been severely budget-limited, bottoming out with last year's line-item veto, but they have managed to bring one project, the X-40A "Space Maneuver Vehicle" (SMV), a reusable recoverable autonomous upper stage, to the point of its successful first flight test last week - an unpowered drop-test that checked out the X-40A's low-speed aerodynamics and autoland capability. USAF MSP has other worthwhile projects stuck at the planning stage for lack of funds, in particular their Integrated Technology Testbed (ITTB), an expandable ground-test rig that would bring together representative reusable launcher hardware and run it through repeated realistic space-mission simulations. ITTB might eventually, depending on both funding and interim results, be evolved into some sort of son-of-DC-X low-cost flight demonstrator - but the project is designed to return useful knowledge across a range of funding levels. Space Access Society believes that USAF MSP is a good value for taxpayer dollars, for a number of reasons. - They have a good track record, building the DC-X reusable rocket demonstrator and flying it eight times (before NASA took it over) for roughly a hundred million dollars total, not to mention their recent first-flight X-40A success. - The potential USAF requirements MSP is aiming at have much in common with potential commercial RLV operator requirements - fast turnaround, small ground crews, minimal fixed ground infrastructure for dispersed operations, and both ground-to-orbit and high-speed point-to-point flight. The operational characteristics and also the technologies USAF MSP is looking at are largely complementary to, not competitive with, the direction various NASA RLV efforts are taking. (NASA RLV has displayed a tendency to concentrate on radical technological advances while paying less attention to the mundane operational considerations that are of critical interest to both potential military and commercial operators.) Put another way, USAF and Fedex requirements have a lot more in common with each other than either has with NASA's. - MSP is cheap insurance against both hostile space competition in the next century, and against possible problems with NASA RLV efforts, about which the jury is still very much out. If nothing else, a little friendly competition concentrates minds no end... Congressional Background Congress is out of session until after Labor Day, when they'll reconvene for the final push to pass all the FY'99 budget bills by early October, leaving them some time to campaign before the November elections. The House and Senate versions of the Defense Appropriation bill are already passed and ready for the conference committee to hammer out the differences, and neither contains anything for Military Spaceplane. Normally this would mean no chance for MSP; Congressional procedure usually forbids adding anything in conference that wasn't in at least one version of the bill. But these are unusual circumstances: the reason there was no MSP money in either bill was that MSP was among the handful of items line-item vetoed last year, and until the courts overturned the line-item veto, there seemed no point in including MSP again only to be line-item vetoed again. ___________________________________________________________________ - SAS Action Recommendations Who To Target Members of the House and Senate Appropriations Defense subcommittees (plus the overall Appropriations Committee bosses) are key; they will most likely be the Defense Appropriations conference members. Other members of the Appropriations Committees also have influence here and are worth contacting, as are members of the House and Senate Defense Authorizations committees. And even those not in any of these positions can if they choose put in a word with their colleagues who are. See attached lists for whether your Representative or Senators are on the Defense subcommittees. (Your 9-digit zip code and www.vote- smart.org will tell you who your Representative and Senators are, what committees they're on, and what their DC and local office phone and fax numbers are.) What To Do Congress is out of session until after Labor Day - this means many Representatives and some Senators will be back in the home districts warming up for this fall's reelection campaigns, appearing at numerous public and private events. Those of you who have some previous experience at this might want to prepare a five-minute presentation on why USAF MSP should be funded and try to make an appointment to brief your Representative or Senator. Any of you feeling moderately ambitious, articulate, and presentable might want to call your Representative or Senator's local office and ask for their local event schedule with an eye toward one where you might have a chance to give MSP funding a ten-second pitch, and go do it. A "town meeting" event where you can deliver a question from the audience, a picnic where you can walk up, introduce yourself as a constituent, and ask support for MSP funding, etc... If you do this, bring along a one-page letter describing what it is you're asking for, as below, so you can hand it to one of the staffers likely to be nearby after you make your point. Then follow up by contacting the DC office of the person you've pitched, as below, mentioning this is something you asked their boss for at whatever the event was. The default is to call, write, or fax your Congressman's and/or your Senators' DC offices, and ask that they support adding $25 million to the (FY'99) Defense budget for Military Spaceplane technology work in Program Element 603401F, in the Defense Appropriations Conference. If you call, ask to speak to the person who handles defense matters. (If they tell you their boss isn't on any of the defense committees, ask them if their boss could pass this along to one of his/her colleagues who is.) Chances are you'll get switched to their voicemail. Voicemail or in person, identify yourself as a constituent (Hi, I'm Joe Smith from Sheboygan), make your pitch briefly, give them a one-sentence reason why you think it's important, thank them for their time, and ring off. If you do get them live and they have questions, do your best to answer them. If you write or fax, keep it short, one page max, and state your main point at the start, then briefly give supporting points. Make sure to sign it with where you're from ("Joe Smith, Sheboygan") so they know you're an actual constituent. And of course, either way, be polite - the staffers who'll likely be handling your contact are chronically underpaid and overworked. One bad impression can waste a lot of good impressions. ___________________________________________________________________ (Space Access Society's sole purpose is to promote near-term radical reductions in the cost of reaching space. We encourage you to redistribute this Alert in any medium you choose. ___________________________________________________________________ Space Access Society http://www.space-access.org space.access@space-access.org "Reach low orbit and you're halfway to anywhere in the Solar System" - Robert Anson Heinlein ___________________________________________________________________ Congressional Committee Lists LIKELY DEFENSE APPROPRIATIONS CONFERENCE MEMBERS House Appropriations Committee, National Security Subcommittee (Appropriations Chair) voice fax Livingston, Robert (R-01 LA) 1-202-225-3015 1-202-225-0739 (Appropriations Ranking Minority Member) Obey, David R. (D-07) 1-202-225-3365 1-202-225-0561 (NatSec Subcommittee Chair) Young, C. W. Bill (R-10 FL) 1-202-225-5961 1-202-225-9764 (NatSec Subcommittee RMM) Murtha, John P. (D-12 PA) 1-202-225-2065 1-202-225-5709 Lewis, Jerry (R-40 CA) 1-202-225-5861 1-202-225-6498 Dixon, Julian C. (D-32 CA) 1-202-225-7084 1-202-225-4091 Randy Cunningham (R CA) 1-202-225-5452 1-202-225-2558 Visclosky, Peter J. (D-01 IN) 1-202-225-2461 1-202-225-2493 Sabo, Martin Olav (D-05 MN) 1-202-225-4755 1-202-225-4886 Hefner, Bill (D-08 NC) 1-202-225-3715 1-202-225-4036 Skeen, Joseph (R-02 NM) 1-202-225-2365 1-202-225-9599 Hobson, David L. (R-07 OH) 1-202-225-4324 1-202-225-1984 Istook, Ernest Jim (R-05 OK) 1-202-225-2132 1-202-226-1463 McDade, Joseph M. (R-10 PA) 1-202-225-3731 1-202-225-9594 Bonilla, Henry (R-23 TX) 1-202-225-4511 1-202-225-2237 Nethercutt, George (R-05 WA) 1-202-225-2006 1-202-225-7181 Dicks, Norman D. (D-06 WA) 1-202-225-5916 1-202-226-1176 Senate Appropriations Committee, Defense Subcommittee (chair, SAC Defense Subcommittee) voice fax Sen. Stevens, Ted (R AK) 1-202-224-3004 1-202-224-1044 (Ranking Minority Member, SAC Defense Subcommittee) Sen. Inouye, Daniel (D HI) 1-202-224-3934 1-202-224-6747 Sen. Cochran, Thad (R MS) 1-202-224-5054 1-202-224-3576 Sen. Domenici, Pete V. (R NM) 1-202-224-6621 1-202-224-7371 Sen. McConnell, Mitch (R KY) 1-202-224-2541 1-202-224-2499 Sen. Specter, Arlen (R PA) 1-202-224-4254 1-202-224-1893 Sen. Bond, Christopher (R MO) 1-202-224-5721 1-202-224-8149 Sen. Shelby, Richard C. (R AL) 1-202-224-5744 1-202-224-3416 Sen. Hollings, Ernest (D SC) 1-202-224-6121 1-202-224-4293 Sen. Byrd, Robert (D WV) 1-202-224-3954 1-202-224-4025 Sen. Leahy, Patrick (D VT) 1-202-224-4242 1-202-224-3595 Sen. Harkin, Thomas (D IA) 1-202-224-3254 1-202-224-7431 Sen. Lautenberg, Frank (D NJ) 1-202-224-4744 1-202-224-9707 Sen. Hutchison, Kay Bailey (R TX) 1-202-224-5922 1-202-224-0776 Sen. Gregg, Judd (R NH) 1-202-224-3324 1-202-224-4952 Sen. Bumpers, Dale (D AR) 1-202-224-4843 1-202-224-6435 Sen. Dorgan, Byron (D ND) 1-202-224-2551 1-202-224-1193 ___________________________________________________________________ DEFENSE AUTHORIZATIONS COMMITTEE MEMBERS House National Security Committee (Committee chairman) Spence, Floyd (R 2 SC) 1-202-225-2452 1-202-225-2455 Stump, Robert (R 3 AZ) 1-202-225-4576 1-202-225-6328 Hunter, Duncan L. (R 52 CA) 1-202-225-5672 1-202-225-0235 Kasich, John R. (R 12 OH) 1-202-225-5355 na Bateman, Herbert H. (R 1 VA) 1-202-225-4261 1-202-225-4382 Hansen, James V. (R 1 UT) 1-202-225-0453 1-202-225-5857 Weldon, Curt (R 7 PA) 1-202-225-2011 1-202-225-8137 Hefley, Joel (R 5 CO) 1-202-225-4422 1-202-225-1942 Saxton, H. James (R 3 NJ) 1-202-225-4765 1-202-225-0778 Buyer, Steve (R 5 IN) 1-202-225-5037 1-202-225-2267 Fowler, Tillie (R 4 FL) 1-202-225-2501 1-202-225-9318 McHugh, John M. (R 24 NY) 1-202-225-4611 1-202-226-0621 Talent, James M. (R 2 MO) 1-202-225-2561 1-202-225-2563 Everett, Terry (R 2 AL) 1-202-225-2901 1-202-225-8913 Bartlett, Roscoe G. (R 6 MD) 1-202-225-2721 1-202-225-2193 Lewis, Ron (R 2 KY) 1-202-225-3501 1-202-226-2019 Watts, J.C. (R 4 OK) 1-202-225-6165 1-202-225-3512 Chambliss, Saxby (R 8 GA) 1-202-225-6531 1-202-225-3013 Riley, Bob (R 3 AL) 1-202-225-3261 1-202-225-5827 (Committee ranking minority member) Dellums, Ronald V. (D 9 CA) 1-202-225-2661 1-202-225-9817 Skelton, Ike (D 4 MO) 1-202-225-2876 1-202-225-2695 Sisisky, Norman (D 4 VA) 1-202-225-6365 1-202-226-1170 Spratt Jr., John M. (D 5 SC) 1-202-225-5501 1-202-225-0464 Ortiz, Solomon P. (D 27 TX) 1-202-225-7742 1-202-226-1134 Pickett, Owen B. (D 2 VA) 1-202-225-4215 1-202-225-4218 Evans, Lane (D 17 IL) 1-202-225-5905 1-202-225-5396 Taylor, Gene (D 5 MS) 1-202-225-5772 1-202-225-7074 Abercrombie, Neil (D 1 HI) 1-202-225-2726 1-202-225-4580 Meehan, Martin T. (D 5 MA) 1-202-225-3411 1-202-226-0771 Harman, Jane (D 36 CA) 1-202-225-8220 1-202-226-0684 McHale, Paul (D 15 PA) 1-202-225-6411 1-202-225-5320 Kennedy, Patrick (D 1 RI) 1-202-225-4911 1-202-225-3290 Blagojevich, Rod (D 5 IL) 1-202-225-4061 1-202-225-5603 Snyder, Vic (D 2 AR) 1-202-225-2506 1-202-225-5903 Rodriguez, Ciro (D 28 TX) 1-202-225-1640 1-202-225-1641 Senate Armed Services Committee Thurmond, Strom R SC 1-202-224-5972 1-202-224-1300 Warner, John W. R VA 1-202-224-2023 1-202-224-6079 McCain, John R AZ 1-202-224-2235 1-202-228-2862 Coats, Daniel R. R IN 1-202-224-5623 1-202-228-4137 Smith, Bob R NH 1-202-224-2841 1-202-224-1353 Kempthorne, Dirk R ID 1-202-224-6142 1-202-224-5893 Inhofe, James R OK 1-202-224-4721 1-202-228-0380 Santorum, Rick R PA 1-202-224-6324 1-202-228-0604 Snowe, Olympia R ME 1-202-224-5344 1-202-224-1946 Roberts, Pat R KS 1-202-224-4774 1-202-224-3514 Levin, Carl D MI 1-202-224-6221 1-202-224-1388 Kennedy, Edward M. D MA 1-202-224-4543 1-202-224-2417 Bingaman, Jeff D NM 1-202-224-5521 1-202-224-2852 Glenn, John D OH 1-202-224-3353 1-202-224-7983 Byrd, Robert C. D WV 1-202-224-3954 1-202-228-0002 Robb, Charles S. D VA 1-202-224-4024 1-202-224-8689 Lieberman, Joseph I. D CT 1-202-224-4041 1-202-224-9750 Cleland, Max D GA 1-202-224-3521 1-202-224-0072 for more info, have your 9-digit zip ready and check out www.vote-smart.org *end* From VM Mon Aug 24 10:00:44 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["297" "Sun" "23" "August" "1998" "21:46:10" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "23" "starship-design: Re:" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 297 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14395 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 18:47:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14390 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 18:47:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 5YYLa27696; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 21:46:10 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: <21adcc7d.35e0c5ed@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: vid@zooid.org, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 21:46:10 EDT In a message dated 8/19/98 8:02:54 AM, you wrote: >Hi, > > > > My friends and I were checking out your www page and we wish to congratulate >you > >on your contributions towards the future of science. > > > >Tally Ho! > >Garth Brooks Thanks a lot, we try to inspire and inform. Kelly Starks From VM Mon Aug 24 10:00:44 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1113" "Sun" "23" "August" "1998" "21:46:23" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "43" "starship-design: Re: Starhsip Design Project" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1113 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14361 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 18:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14349 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 18:47:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 8ZYMa04229; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 21:46:23 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: <965eba7d.35e0c5f0@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: husofluv@cio.net, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: KellySt@aol.com Subject: starship-design: Re: Starhsip Design Project Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 21:46:23 EDT In a message dated 8/22/98 2:07:43 AM, husofluv@cio.net wrote: >It is nice to see a web site that seriously considers interstellar travel. > >Some sites on this topic tend to devolve into "Star Trek" nonsense or > >scienceless sci-fi-speak fan sites. And while I am as big a Trekkie as they > >come, I like it even better when anyone can discuss or imagine space travel > >in practical, real-science terms. After all, we're going to have to get out > >there SOMEHOW, and we'd better start talking about it and learning what we > >need to learn about interstellar flight right now. Your web site is a breath > >of fresh air! Hence I have added it to my list of top sites for September. > > > >See your link at: > >http://www.home.cio.net/husofluv/Sagan/Sagan.htm > > > > > >Here is a web award graphic if you're so inclined. =^) > > > >---Brad R. Torgersen Thank you very much for your interest. We are trying to seriously consider the topic, and make folks think about space as something we can do in te near future not a few centuries from now. Glad you liked it, and thanks for the listing! Kelly Starks From VM Mon Aug 24 10:00:44 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1226" "Sun" "23" "August" "1998" "21:46:15" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "29" "starship-design: Re: learn more" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1226 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14377 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 18:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14372 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 18:47:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 7YOFa03888; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 21:46:15 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: bazzi@EMAIL.MSN.COM, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, Casanova334@hotmail.com Subject: starship-design: Re: learn more Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 21:46:15 EDT In a message dated 8/20/98 12:59:52 PM, you wrote: >Hi, > Your website really attracted my attention!!!! Could u pls tell me what >exactely is the LUNAR INSTITUTE of TECHNOLOGY? Is it sort of a University. >The thing that interested me the most was the "starship design project". In >the future, I want to do things that have to do with space. I'm really >fascinated with that kind of stuff. Could u pls send me more info. and >answer my question to my e-mail: Casanova334@hotmail.com > >Thanks!!!!!! Thank you. I'm afraid LIT isn't really a university. There was some intention origionally that it could develop into an online one, but that didn't happen. Its just an on-line group that debates ideas about practical mid 21st century star travel concepts. Its gotten quieter over the last year or two, but for the first couple of years their were hundreds of subcribers to the newsletters, and a lot of debate and analysis. (You might want to browse throu the newsletter archives.) Several of us aer or were people from NASA or the aerospace busness. Lots more were everything from students to submariners. What you se in the site and the archives is what we came up with. Hope this helps. Kelly Starks From VM Wed Aug 26 10:04:57 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2391" "Wed" "26" "August" "1998" "17:57:03" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "55" "starship-design: URANOS Club" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2391 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA19148 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:00:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.8]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA19141 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:00:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id RAA00785; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 17:57:03 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199808261557.RAA00785@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: starship-design: URANOS Club Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 17:57:03 +0200 (MET DST) ----------------------------------------------------------- --> http://www.uranos.eu.org/uranose.html <-- * * **** *** * * *** **** * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * * **** ***** * * * * * *** * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * *** * * * * * * *** **** CLUB * for * EXPANSION * of * CIVILIZATION * into * SPACE grouping people interested in the development of human civilization and its expansion into extraterrestial space ----------------------------------------------------------- WELCOME! WELCOME! We would like to invite you for a visit to WWW pages of a new Internet Club * URANOS * In our opinion, expansion of humanity into space is a prerequisite for further development of our civilization. We are afraid, however, that recognition of this necessity is still infrequent among people, which may constitute a bigger problem than possible technological difficulties. Hence it is necessary to constantly remind people that the world does not end at the limit of Earth's athmosphere. ----------------------------------------------------------- At the address: http://www.uranos.eu.org/uranose.html you will find, among others: - Our Club Manifesto, spelling out our views on the current challenges facing the Earth's civilization; - A rich collection of links to the most interesting WWW pages dedicated to space exploration; - Many more attractions - in preparation! PLEASE PAY US A VISIT AND HELP US IN OUR ACTIVITIES! Club Founders: -- Andrzej K. Brandt -- Zenon Kulpa "Earth is the cradle of humanity, but one cannot live in a cradle forever." [Konstantin E. Tsiolkovski] ----------------------------------------------------------- PLEASE NOTE: The activities of our Club are aimed mostly at the Polish-speaking community around the world. However, since encouragements, advice, and any other help from the rest of the world are also gladly received and greatly appreciated by us, we maintain also English versions of the more important pages of our site. ----------------------------------------------------------- Please forward! * Please forward! From VM Mon Aug 31 09:55:10 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4322" "Sat" "29" "August" "1998" "15:40:32" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "106" "starship-design: Plasma Engine" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 4322 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA07397 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 13:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA07328 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 13:42:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p266.gnt.com [204.49.91.26]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id PAA09757 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 15:42:01 -0500 Message-ID: <000601bdd38d$45151160$365b31cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01BDD363.5C3F0960" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship Design" Subject: starship-design: Plasma Engine Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 15:40:32 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BDD363.5C3F0960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know anything else about this? "The most amazing thing I saw this week was the rocket engine of the future. It's been the life's work of astronaut Franklin Chang-Diaz. He started working on the plasma engine in college, and now, at age 48, he's got a demonstration version of the engine in his lab in Houston. The scale model is about 30 feet long. I'm not a plasma physicist, but Chang-Diaz is, and he explains the engine this way: You put a small amount of hydrogen into one end of the engine. It's turned into plasma, a burning gas as hot as the surface of the sun. Radio waves from an on-board transmitter are used to create the plasma and then a series of electromagnets that circle the central chamber keep the plasma from touching the metal sides of the engine. The super-hot plasma is then moved down to the exhaust nozzle, where is pushes the engine away. Unlike engines that use solid or liquid fuel, the plasma engine is much more efficient. Chang-Diaz says it gets more miles per gallon than you can imagine. In addition, it's much faster than anything in use today. It can travel from the Earth to Mars in 90 days. That's twice as fast as current technology allows. Chang-Diaz is working with a group of college students to develop the engine and one of them, Lenny Cassady, has worked out a flight plan. He believes it will be ready to launch on May 16, 2018. That's about the time Lenny says he'd be ready to fly the plasma-powered spaceship to Mars." Lee ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BDD363.5C3F0960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Does=20 anyone know anything else about this?
 
 
"The most amazing thing I saw this week was = the rocket=20 engine of the future. It's been the life's work of astronaut Franklin=20 Chang-Diaz. He started working on the plasma engine in college, and now, = at age=20 48, he's got a demonstration version of the engine in his lab in = Houston. The=20 scale model is about 30 feet long.

I'm not a plasma physicist, but Chang-Diaz is, and he explains the = engine=20 this way: You put a small amount of hydrogen into one end of the engine. = It's=20 turned into plasma, a burning gas as hot as the surface of the sun. = Radio waves=20 from an on-board transmitter are used to create the plasma and then a = series of=20 electromagnets that circle the central chamber keep the plasma from = touching the=20 metal sides of the engine. The super-hot plasma is then moved down to = the=20 exhaust nozzle, where is pushes the engine away.=20

Unlike engines that use solid or liquid fuel, the plasma engine is = much more=20 efficient. Chang-Diaz says it gets more miles per gallon than you can = imagine.=20 In addition, it's much faster than anything in use today. It can travel = from the=20 Earth to Mars in 90 days. That's twice as fast as current technology = allows.=20

Chang-Diaz is working with a group of college students to develop the = engine=20 and one of them, Lenny Cassady, has worked out a flight plan. He = believes it=20 will be ready to launch on May 16, 2018. That's about the time Lenny = says he'd=20 be ready to fly the plasma-powered spaceship to Mars."

 

Lee 

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BDD363.5C3F0960-- From VM Mon Aug 31 09:55:10 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["7157" "Sat" "29" "August" "1998" "21:32:03" "-0400" "William Thomas" "wthomas@mint.net" nil "171" "Re: starship-design: Plasma Engine" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 7157 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA26109 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 05:23:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mint.mint.net (root@mint.mint.net [204.254.98.16]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA26103 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 05:23:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from WilliamThomas (ddialup-r-156.mint.net [208.220.38.176]) by mint.mint.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA23469; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 08:23:17 -0400 Message-ID: <000001bdd411$365ae120$b026dcd0@WilliamThomas> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001E_01BDD394.76839F80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "William Thomas" From: "William Thomas" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "L. Parker" , "Starship Design" Subject: Re: starship-design: Plasma Engine Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 21:32:03 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BDD394.76839F80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am also not a plasma physicist, however, it would seem to me that if = someone was able to create great amounts of energy (enough to hurl forth = a starship at high velocity while powering a super elctro magnet) simply = by juicing up some hydrogen with radio waves, there would be a lot more = useful and accessible applications right here on earth. William Thomas wthomas@mint.net -----Original Message----- From: L. Parker To: Starship Design Date: Saturday, August 29, 1998 5:08 PM Subject: starship-design: Plasma Engine =20 =20 Does anyone know anything else about this? =20 =20 "The most amazing thing I saw this week was the rocket engine of the = future. It's been the life's work of astronaut Franklin Chang-Diaz. He = started working on the plasma engine in college, and now, at age 48, = he's got a demonstration version of the engine in his lab in Houston. = The scale model is about 30 feet long.=20 I'm not a plasma physicist, but Chang-Diaz is, and he explains the = engine this way: You put a small amount of hydrogen into one end of the = engine. It's turned into plasma, a burning gas as hot as the surface of = the sun. Radio waves from an on-board transmitter are used to create the = plasma and then a series of electromagnets that circle the central = chamber keep the plasma from touching the metal sides of the engine. The = super-hot plasma is then moved down to the exhaust nozzle, where is = pushes the engine away.=20 Unlike engines that use solid or liquid fuel, the plasma engine is = much more efficient. Chang-Diaz says it gets more miles per gallon than = you can imagine. In addition, it's much faster than anything in use = today. It can travel from the Earth to Mars in 90 days. That's twice as = fast as current technology allows.=20 Chang-Diaz is working with a group of college students to develop = the engine and one of them, Lenny Cassady, has worked out a flight plan. = He believes it will be ready to launch on May 16, 2018. That's about the = time Lenny says he'd be ready to fly the plasma-powered spaceship to = Mars." =20 Lee=20 ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BDD394.76839F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am also not a plasma physicist, = however, it=20 would seem to me that if someone was able to create great amounts of = energy=20 (enough to hurl forth a starship at high velocity while powering a super = elctro=20 magnet) simply by juicing up some hydrogen with radio waves, there would = be a=20 lot more useful and accessible applications right here on = earth.
 
William=20 Thomas
wthomas@mint.net<= FONT=20 face=3D"Eras Demi ITC">
-----Original=20 Message-----
From: L. Parker <lparker@cacaphony.net>
To:=20 Starship Design <starship-design@lists.u= oregon.edu>
Date:=20 Saturday, August 29, 1998 5:08 PM
Subject: = starship-design:=20 Plasma Engine

Does anyone know anything else about=20 this?
 
 
"The most amazing thing I saw this week was = the rocket=20 engine of the future. It's been the life's work of astronaut = Franklin=20 Chang-Diaz. He started working on the plasma engine in college, and = now, at=20 age 48, he's got a demonstration version of the engine in his lab in = Houston. The scale model is about 30 feet long.

I'm not a plasma physicist, but = Chang-Diaz is,=20 and he explains the engine this way: You put a small amount of = hydrogen into=20 one end of the engine. It's turned into plasma, a burning gas as hot = as the=20 surface of the sun. Radio waves from an on-board transmitter are = used to=20 create the plasma and then a series of electromagnets that circle = the=20 central chamber keep the plasma from touching the metal sides of the = engine.=20 The super-hot plasma is then moved down to the exhaust nozzle, where = is=20 pushes the engine away.

Unlike engines that use solid or = liquid fuel,=20 the plasma engine is much more efficient. Chang-Diaz says it gets = more miles=20 per gallon than you can imagine. In addition, it's much faster than = anything=20 in use today. It can travel from the Earth to Mars in 90 days. = That's twice=20 as fast as current technology allows.

Chang-Diaz is working with a group = of college=20 students to develop the engine and one of them, Lenny Cassady, has = worked=20 out a flight plan. He believes it will be ready to launch on May 16, = 2018.=20 That's about the time Lenny says he'd be ready to fly the = plasma-powered=20 spaceship to Mars."

 

Lee 

------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BDD394.76839F80-- From VM Mon Aug 31 09:55:10 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2902" "Sun" "30" "August" "1998" "10:13:01" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "77" "RE: starship-design: Plasma Engine" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2902 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA18828 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 08:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA18766 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 08:15:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p266.gnt.com [204.49.91.26]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id KAA10622; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 10:15:22 -0500 Message-ID: <001601bdd428$adfc10c0$365b31cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01BDD3FE.C52608C0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 In-Reply-To: <000001bdd411$365ae120$b026dcd0@WilliamThomas> Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "William Thomas" Cc: "Starship Design" Subject: RE: starship-design: Plasma Engine Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 10:13:01 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BDD3FE.C52608C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On a small scale, it is used in welding and metal fabrication. Plasma beams have been around for over ten years in industry. Of course, these applications are the equivalent of a penlight when compared to a plasma engine. Lee -----Original Message----- From: William Thomas [mailto:wthomas@mint.net] Sent: Saturday, August 29, 1998 8:32 PM To: L. Parker; Starship Design Subject: Re: starship-design: Plasma Engine I am also not a plasma physicist, however, it would seem to me that if someone was able to create great amounts of energy (enough to hurl forth a starship at high velocity while powering a super elctro magnet) simply by juicing up some hydrogen with radio waves, there would be a lot more useful and accessible applications right here on earth. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BDD3FE.C52608C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On a=20 small scale, it is used in welding and metal fabrication. Plasma beams = have been=20 around for over ten years in industry. Of course, these applications are = the=20 equivalent of a penlight when compared to a plasma = engine.
 
Lee
-----Original Message-----
From: William Thomas=20 [mailto:wthomas@mint.net]
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 1998 = 8:32=20 PM
To: L. Parker; Starship Design
Subject: Re:=20 starship-design: Plasma Engine

I am also not a plasma physicist, = however,=20 it would seem to me that if someone was able to create great amounts = of=20 energy (enough to hurl forth a starship at high velocity while = powering a=20 super elctro magnet) simply by juicing up some hydrogen with radio = waves,=20 there would be a lot more useful and accessible applications right = here on=20 earth.
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BDD3FE.C52608C0-- From VM Mon Aug 31 09:55:10 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["19450" "Sun" "30" "August" "1998" "10:12:43" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "421" "starship-design: Plasma Engine (VASIMR)" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 19450 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA18461 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 08:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA18391 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 08:15:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p266.gnt.com [204.49.91.26]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id KAA10614 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 10:15:17 -0500 Message-ID: <001101bdd428$a3925ae0$365b31cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01BDD3FE.BABC52E0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship Design" Subject: starship-design: Plasma Engine (VASIMR) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 10:12:43 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BDD3FE.BABC52E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I found more information on the plasma engine mentioned on CNN. I knew about VASIMR before, but had not made the connection with Franklin Chang-Diaz. These abstracts may help give a better understanding of his plasma engine. I pointed out to the group once before that much of the research going into VASIMR can also be applied to other concepts such as ACMF that are not as far along. This device is apparently is in test stand stage (it could be flyable in a few years) while ACMF is in test bed stage. There are also several other approaches such as Dense Plasma Focus, Star Thrust, Inertial Electrostatic Confinement, and the Synchrotron Radiation Drive currently in various stages of testing. Both VASIMR and ACMF/AIMSTAR offer delta v in the +200km/sec range making them suitable for relatively rapid interplanetary travel. Mini-conference on Deep Space Plasma Thrusters. MIXED session, Thursday afternoon, November 20 North 6, Convention Center [pThpM2.01] Research Status of the Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket F. R. Chang-Diaz ((ASPL/JSC/NASA)) Research in the VASIMR approach to high-power rocket propulsion has continued since 1980. The system consists of a three-stage asymmetric magnetic mirror, featuring a hybrid magnetic nozzle. Plasma is injected, heated and subsequently exhausted to provide modulated thrust and specific impulse at constant power. Plasma injector studies initially involve a modified Lorentz Force Accelerator. Other injector concepts, including helicons and hollow cathodes are briefly examined. Plasma heating methodsinvolve electron and ion cyclotron resonance, though other efficiency enhancements such as whistlers and mode coupling are being explored. Plasma detachment dynamics from the magnetic nozzle are considered. In the low temperature, high density regime, the use of a co-axial, hypersonic neutral gas boundary layer near the nozzle throat increases the thrust while triggering collisional plasma detachment. In the high temperature, low density regime, inducing time-dependent magnetic ripples in the nozzle is a potential turbulence-inducing mechanism for plasma detachment. Experimental studies currently focus on plasma injection and heating to power levels of up to 200kW in pulses of several seconds. A diagnostics set characterizes the plasma conditions throughout the system. Performance and advantages over other rocket technologies are presented in the context of a mission to Mars. [pThpM2.02] A Plasma Diagnostic Set for the Study of a Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket J. P. Squire, F. R. Chang-Diaz ((ASPL/JSC/NASA)), R. Bengtson, Jr. Bussell, V. T. Jacobson, A. J. Wootton ((University of Texas at Austin)), E. A. Bering, T. Jack, A. Rabeau ((University of Houston)) The Advanced Space Propulsion Laboratory (ASPL) is developing a Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket (VASIMR) using an RF heated magnetic mirror operated asymmetrically. We will describe the initial set of plasma diagnostics and data acquisition system being developed and installed on the VASIMR experiment. A U.T. Austin team is installing two fast reciprocating probes: a quadruple Langmuir and a Mach probe. These measure electron density and temperature profiles, electrostatic plasma fluctuations, and plasma flow profiles. The University of Houston is developing an array of 20 highly directional Retarding Potential Analyzers (RPA) for measuring ion energy distribution function profiles in the rocket plume, giving a measurement of total thrust. We have also developed a CAMAC based data acquisition system using LabView running on a Power Macintosh communicating through a 2 MB/s serial highway. We will present data from initial plasma operations and discuss future diagnostic development. [pThpM2.03] An Injector for the Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket T. W. Glover ((Rice University)), F. R. Chang-Diaz, J. P. Squire ((ASPL/JSC/NASA)), A. A. Chan ((Rice University)) We present a summary of progress on the development of a plasma injector for NASA's VASIMR (Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket) engine. The plasma rocket constrains a flowing plasma in an asymmetric magnetic bottle and exhausts it through a magnetic nozzle to produce thrust. The injector is a plasma source located on the axis of symmetry, forward of the series of coils forming the constraining magnetic field. The injector is intended to produce a well-collimated jet of highly ionized plasma which will enter the central cell of the machine through its forward mirror. The prototype design is based on that of a Lorentz Force Accelerator developed as a thruster by the electric propulsion research group at Princeton. Our investigation focuses on the effects of the rocket's magnetic field on the operation of the injector, the effect of a local magnetic field on the discharge behavior, and the effectiveness of discharge initiation by glow discharge versus initiation by ECRH. We evaluate the performance of this prototype injector by comparing the characteristics of the plasma it inserts into the central cell of the engine with the characteristics called for in the design of the plasma rocket. [pThpM2.04] ICRF Development for the Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket P. M. Ryan ((Oak Ridge National Laboratory)), F. W. Baity, G. C. Barber, M. D. Carter, D. J. Hoffman, E. F. Jaeger, D. J. Taylor ((ORNL)), F. R. Chang-Diaz, J. P. Squire ((ASPL/NASA/JSC)), G. McCaskill ((Lockheed Martin Corporation)) The feasibility of using magnetically vectored and rf-heated plasmas for space propulsion (F. R. Chang-Diaz, et al.\rm, Bull. Am. Phys. Soc., 41, 1541 (1996)) is being investigated experimentally on an asymmetric magnetic mirror device at the Advanced Space Propulsion Laboratory (ASPL), Johnson Space Center, NASA. Analysis of the antenna interaction with and the wave propagation through the dense plasma propulsion system is being studied at ORNL(Oak Ridge National Laboratory, managed by Lockheed Martin Energy Research Corp. for the U.S. Department of Energy under contract number DE-AC05-96OR22464.), using antenna design codes developed for ICH systems and mirror codes developed for the EBT experiment at ORNL. The present modeling effort is directed toward the ASPL experimental device. Antenna optimization and performance, as well as the design considerations for space-qualified rf components and systems (minimizing weight while maximizing reliability) will be presented. [pThpM2.05] Single Particle Dynamics in a Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket A. Ilin ((Lockheed Martin Space Mission Systems amp; Services)), F. R. Chang-Diaz, J. P. Squire ((ASPL/JSC/NASA)) The behavior of single charged particles in a Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket (VASIMR) is examined. Of particular importance is the effect of a magnetic nozzle in enhancing the axial momentum of the exhaust. Also, different geometries and rocket asymmetries are considered. The magnetic configuration is modeled with an adaptable mesh which increases accuracy without compromising the speed of the simulation. The single particle trajectories are integrated with a finite difference approach which can quickly solve for systems of thousands of particles in a reasonable time (1-2 hours) and without the need for a powerful supercomputer. The magnetic model is also used to examine the possibility for magnetic shielding of human spacecraft, equipped with VASIMR propulsion systems, against some forms of solar radiation. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BDD3FE.BABC52E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I found more = information on the=20 plasma engine mentioned on CNN.
 
I knew about VASIMR before, but had = not made the=20 connection with Franklin Chang-Diaz. These abstracts may help give a = better=20 understanding of his plasma engine. I pointed out to the group once = before that=20 much of the research going into VASIMR can also be applied to other = concepts=20 such as ACMF that are not as far = along.
 
This device is apparently is in test stand stage (it could be = flyable in=20 a few years) while ACMF is in test bed stage. There are also several = other=20 approaches such as Dense Plasma Focus, Star Thrust, Inertial = Electrostatic=20 Confinement, and the Synchrotron Radiation Drive currently in various = stages of=20 testing.
 
Both VASIMR and ACMF/AIMSTAR offer delta v in the +200km/sec = range making=20 them suitable for relatively rapid interplanetary = travel.
 
 
Mini-conference on Deep Space = Plasma=20 Thrusters.
MIXED session, Thursday afternoon, November 20 =
North=20 6, Convention Center

[pThpM2.01]<= /A>=20 Research Status of the Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma=20 Rocket

F. R. = Chang-Diaz=20 ((ASPL/JSC/NASA))

Research in the VASIMR approach = to high-power=20 rocket propulsion has continued since 1980. The system consists of a = three-stage=20 asymmetric magnetic mirror, featuring a hybrid magnetic nozzle. Plasma = is=20 injected, heated and subsequently exhausted to provide modulated thrust = and=20 specific impulse at constant power. Plasma injector studies initially = involve a=20 modified Lorentz Force Accelerator. Other injector concepts, including = helicons=20 and hollow cathodes are briefly examined. Plasma heating methodsinvolve = electron=20 and ion cyclotron resonance, though other efficiency enhancements such = as=20 whistlers and mode coupling are being explored. Plasma detachment = dynamics from=20 the magnetic nozzle are considered. In the low temperature, high density = regime,=20 the use of a co-axial, hypersonic neutral gas boundary layer near the = nozzle=20 throat increases the thrust while triggering collisional plasma = detachment. In=20 the high temperature, low density regime, inducing time-dependent = magnetic=20 ripples in the nozzle is a potential turbulence-inducing mechanism for = plasma=20 detachment. Experimental studies currently focus on plasma injection and = heating=20 to power levels of up to 200kW in pulses of several seconds. A = diagnostics set=20 characterizes the plasma conditions throughout the system. Performance = and=20 advantages over other rocket technologies are presented in the context = of a=20 mission to Mars.

[pThpM2.02]<= /A> A=20 Plasma Diagnostic Set for the Study of a Variable Specific Impulse = Magnetoplasma=20 Rocket

J. P. = Squire, F. R.=20 Chang-Diaz ((ASPL/JSC/NASA)), R. Bengtson, Jr. Bussell, V. T. Jacobson, = A. J.=20 Wootton ((University of Texas at Austin)), E. A. Bering, T. Jack, A. = Rabeau=20 ((University of Houston))

The Advanced Space Propulsion = Laboratory=20 (ASPL) is developing a Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket = (VASIMR)=20 using an RF heated magnetic mirror operated asymmetrically. We will = describe the=20 initial set of plasma diagnostics and data acquisition system being = developed=20 and installed on the VASIMR experiment. A U.T. Austin team is installing = two=20 fast reciprocating probes: a quadruple Langmuir and a Mach probe. These = measure=20 electron density and temperature profiles, electrostatic plasma = fluctuations,=20 and plasma flow profiles. The University of Houston is developing an = array of 20=20 highly directional Retarding Potential Analyzers (RPA) for measuring ion = energy=20 distribution function profiles in the rocket plume, giving a measurement = of=20 total thrust. We have also developed a CAMAC based data acquisition = system using=20 LabView running on a Power Macintosh communicating through a 2 MB/s = serial=20 highway. We will present data from initial plasma operations and discuss = future=20 diagnostic development.

[pThpM2.03]<= /A> An=20 Injector for the Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma = Rocket

T. W. Glover ((Rice University)), = F. R.=20 Chang-Diaz, J. P. Squire ((ASPL/JSC/NASA)), A. A. Chan ((Rice = University))=20

We present a summary of progress = on the=20 development of a plasma injector for NASA's VASIMR (Variable Specific = Impulse=20 Magnetoplasma Rocket) engine. The plasma rocket constrains a flowing = plasma in=20 an asymmetric magnetic bottle and exhausts it through a magnetic nozzle = to=20 produce thrust. The injector is a plasma source located on the axis of = symmetry,=20 forward of the series of coils forming the constraining magnetic field. = The=20 injector is intended to produce a well-collimated jet of highly ionized = plasma=20 which will enter the central cell of the machine through its forward = mirror. The=20 prototype design is based on that of a Lorentz Force Accelerator = developed as a=20 thruster by the electric propulsion research group at Princeton. Our=20 investigation focuses on the effects of the rocket's magnetic field on = the=20 operation of the injector, the effect of a local magnetic field on the = discharge=20 behavior, and the effectiveness of discharge initiation by glow = discharge versus=20 initiation by ECRH. We evaluate the performance of this prototype = injector by=20 comparing the characteristics of the plasma it inserts into the central = cell of=20 the engine with the characteristics called for in the design of the = plasma=20 rocket.

[pThpM2.04]<= /A> ICRF=20 Development for the Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma=20 Rocket

P. M. Ryan = ((Oak Ridge=20 National Laboratory)), F. W. Baity, G. C. Barber, M. D. Carter, D. J. = Hoffman,=20 E. F. Jaeger, D. J. Taylor ((ORNL)), F. R. Chang-Diaz, J. P. Squire=20 ((ASPL/NASA/JSC)), G. McCaskill ((Lockheed Martin Corporation)) =

The feasibility of using = magnetically=20 vectored and rf-heated plasmas for space propulsion (F. R. Chang-Diaz, = et=20 al.\rm, Bull. Am. Phys. Soc., 41, 1541 (1996)) is being investigated=20 experimentally on an asymmetric magnetic mirror device at the Advanced = Space=20 Propulsion Laboratory (ASPL), Johnson Space Center, NASA. Analysis of = the=20 antenna interaction with and the wave propagation through the dense = plasma=20 propulsion system is being studied at ORNL(Oak Ridge National = Laboratory,=20 managed by Lockheed Martin Energy Research Corp. for the U.S. Department = of=20 Energy under contract number DE-AC05-96OR22464.), using antenna design = codes=20 developed for ICH systems and mirror codes developed for the EBT = experiment at=20 ORNL. The present modeling effort is directed toward the ASPL = experimental=20 device. Antenna optimization and performance, as well as the design=20 considerations for space-qualified rf components and systems (minimizing = weight=20 while maximizing reliability) will be presented.

[pThpM2.05]<= /A>=20 Single Particle Dynamics in a Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma=20 Rocket

A. Ilin = ((Lockheed=20 Martin Space Mission Systems amp; Services)), F. R. Chang-Diaz, J. P. = Squire=20 ((ASPL/JSC/NASA))

The behavior of single charged = particles in a=20 Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket (VASIMR) is examined. Of=20 particular importance is the effect of a magnetic nozzle in enhancing = the axial=20 momentum of the exhaust. Also, different geometries and rocket = asymmetries are=20 considered. The magnetic configuration is modeled with an adaptable mesh = which=20 increases accuracy without compromising the speed of the simulation. The = single=20 particle trajectories are integrated with a finite difference approach = which can=20 quickly solve for systems of thousands of particles in a reasonable time = (1-2=20 hours) and without the need for a powerful supercomputer. The magnetic = model is=20 also used to examine the possibility for magnetic shielding of human = spacecraft,=20 equipped with VASIMR propulsion systems, against some forms of solar = radiation.=20

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BDD3FE.BABC52E0-- From VM Mon Aug 31 09:55:10 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["218" "Sun" "30" "August" "1998" "11:18:09" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "7" "starship-design: Plasma Engine" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 218 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA29334 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 09:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA29329 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 09:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p266.gnt.com [204.49.91.26]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id LAA15087 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:20:33 -0500 Message-ID: <001f01bdd431$c7a04f60$365b31cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship Design" Subject: starship-design: Plasma Engine Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:18:09 -0500 Correction, AIMSTAR is claiming delta v in excess of 900 km/sec, making it almost four times better than the nearest plasma engine. For interstellar use, we would need to boost this to at least 90,000 km/sec.... Lee From VM Mon Aug 31 09:55:10 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1856" "Sun" "30" "August" "1998" "12:36:04" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "68" "Re: starship-design: Plasma Engine" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1856 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA03562 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 09:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA03551 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 09:37:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.3) id VMVKa22684; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 12:36:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <96768fdf.35e97f74@aol.com>> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: lparker@cacaphony.net, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Plasma Engine Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 12:36:04 EDT In a message dated 8/29/98 3:57:35 PM, lparker@cacaphony.net wrote: >Does anyone know anything else about this? > > > > > >"The most amazing thing I saw this week was the rocket engine of the future. > >It's been the life's work of astronaut Franklin Chang-Diaz. He started > >working on the plasma engine in college, and now, at age 48, he's got a > >demonstration version of the engine in his lab in Houston. The scale model > >is about 30 feet long. > >I'm not a plasma physicist, but Chang-Diaz is, and he explains the engine > >this way: You put a small amount of hydrogen into one end of the engine. > >It's turned into plasma, a burning gas as hot as the surface of the sun. > >Radio waves from an on-board transmitter are used to create the plasma and > >then a series of electromagnets that circle the central chamber keep the > >plasma from touching the metal sides of the engine. The super-hot plasma is > >then moved down to the exhaust nozzle, where is pushes the engine away. > > > >Unlike engines that use solid or liquid fuel, the plasma engine is much more > >efficient. Chang-Diaz says it gets more miles per gallon than you can > >imagine. In addition, it's much faster than anything in use today. It can > >travel from the Earth to Mars in 90 days. That's twice as fast as current > >technology allows. > > > >Chang-Diaz is working with a group of college students to develop the engine > >and one of them, Lenny Cassady, has worked out a flight plan. He believes it > >will be ready to launch on May 16, 2018. That's about the time Lenny says > >he'd be ready to fly the plasma-powered spaceship to Mars." > > > > > > > >Lee In general, its like a very big ion drive. Very effectiv,but dependant on an external power source. So while it may be much more "fuel efficent" on reactino mass, it may not be in power plant fuel. Kelly From VM Mon Aug 31 09:55:10 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["954" "Sun" "30" "August" "1998" "12:12:22" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "31" "RE: starship-design: Plasma Engine" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 954 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11122 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 10:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA11111 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 10:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p266.gnt.com [204.49.91.26]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id MAA19138; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 12:14:52 -0500 Message-ID: <002001bdd439$5acdc0e0$365b31cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 In-Reply-To: <96768fdf.35e97f74@aol.com>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Cc: "Starship Design" Subject: RE: starship-design: Plasma Engine Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 12:12:22 -0500 Kelly, I don't recall seeing any power requirements mentioned anywhere, but a Lithium Lorentz Force drive requires as a minimum a 30 kW power source. Only Russian built space reactors currently supply this much, although there is a 40 kW design being tested by NASA. There is mention of heating the plasma to power levels of up to 200 kW in pulses of several seconds, but no mention of how much power that would require. I saw mention of a new, more powerful klystron being tested, but don't remember the specifics. Lee -----Original Message----- From: KellySt@aol.com [mailto:KellySt@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, August 30, 1998 11:36 AM To: lparker@cacaphony.net; starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Plasma Engine In general, its like a very big ion drive. Very effectiv,but dependant on an external power source. So while it may be much more "fuel efficent" on reactino mass, it may not be in power plant fuel. Kelly From VM Mon Aug 31 09:55:10 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2058" "Sun" "30" "August" "1998" "16:05:01" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "51" "RE: starship-design: Plasma Engine (VASIMR)" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2058 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA28604 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 14:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA28578 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 14:07:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p286.gnt.com [204.49.91.46]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id QAA05229; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 16:07:48 -0500 Message-ID: <002101bdd459$db0297c0$365b31cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 In-Reply-To: <35E99981.A59A0E4A@urly-bird.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Kevin Houston" Cc: "Starship Design" Subject: RE: starship-design: Plasma Engine (VASIMR) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 16:05:01 -0500 Kevin, > Okay, I vote we accept VASIMR as our interplanetary vehicle engine of > choice. The design seems advanced enough to suggest that we will have > off-the-shelf versions by 2050. And it is powerful enough to get us > around a star system. If the above delta V numbers are accurate, then > there is enough thrust to send 20000 Kg (including engine weight and > fuel, of course) at 10 m/s^2 as long as the Reaction Mass holds out. The stated delta v's assume particular payload and mass ratios which include the fuel. Simply adding engines does not give an equivalent increase in delta v. Typical payload ratio are 0.2 which means each engine (with no increase in payload) would only add 40 km/sec. > > I wonder if a cluster of such engines would work as an interstellar > drive? As I've noted before, constant 1G acceleration/deacceleration > applied over the course of the entire trip would build up a huge time > dilation effect as even a relatively short range trip to tau ceti (12 > LY) would get up to .9925 C No, see above. > > As i am writing this , another message from Lee says. > > > Correction, AIMSTAR is claiming delta v in excess of 900 km/sec, making it > > almost four times better than the nearest plasma engine. > > > > Allows 90000 Kg masss to be driven at 10 m/s^2 > > > For interstellar use, we would need to boost this to at least 90,000 > > km/sec.... > > > So would a cluster of 100 AIMSTAR drives give us the thrust we would > need? Or have I misunderstood the math? No, they won't. Too bad. Power isn't really the problem. It is a combination of power (as thrust) and ISP. Current engines with sufficiently high ISPs don't have sufficient thrust and vice versa. You sort of put your finger on it with the constant 1 g acceleration thing. It isn't really necessary to accelerate at 1 g for the whole trip - just until we have achieved a sufficiently high cruising velocity to get there in a reasonable time period. To me that means 0.9 c or better, other people on the group will settle for as little as 0.3 c. Lee From VM Mon Aug 31 16:49:49 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1136" "Mon" "31" "August" "1998" "19:29:50" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "41" "Re: starship-design: Plasma Engine (VASIMR)" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1136 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA19517 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 16:30:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA19507 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 16:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id 2PQPa12057 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 19:29:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <65c59241.35eb31ee@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Plasma Engine (VASIMR) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 19:29:50 EDT In a message dated 8/30/98 10:20:04 AM, lparker@cacaphony.net wrote: >I found more information on the plasma engine mentioned on CNN. > > > >I knew about VASIMR before, but had not made the connection with Franklin > >Chang-Diaz. These abstracts may help give a better understanding of his > >plasma engine. I pointed out to the group once before that much of the > >research going into VASIMR can also be applied to other concepts such as > >ACMF that are not as far along. > > > >This device is apparently is in test stand stage (it could be flyable in a > >few years) while ACMF is in test bed stage. There are also several other > >approaches such as Dense Plasma Focus, Star Thrust, Inertial Electrostatic > >Confinement, and the Synchrotron Radiation Drive currently in various stages > >of testing. > > > >Both VASIMR and ACMF/AIMSTAR offer delta v in the +200km/sec range making > >them suitable for relatively rapid interplanetary travel. These sound good, but how do they expect to generate the power to run these engines? Great spec impulse isn't much help if you need to carry along a huge reactor or something. Kelly From VM Mon Aug 31 16:49:49 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["475" "Mon" "31" "August" "1998" "19:29:48" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "22" "Re: starship-design: Plasma Engine" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 475 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA19617 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 16:30:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA19604 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 16:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id 2XYFa24646 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 19:29:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <83ef382e.35eb31ec@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Plasma Engine Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 19:29:48 EDT In a message dated 8/30/98 11:25:13 AM, lparker@cacaphony.net wrote: >Correction, AIMSTAR is claiming delta v in excess of 900 km/sec, making it > >almost four times better than the nearest plasma engine. > > > >For interstellar use, we would need to boost this to at least 90,000 > >km/sec.... > > > >Lee The fusion systems I used for the Explorer and Fuel/sail designs had spec imp of over a million. Even with that the fuel ratios for the ships were stagering. Kelly From VM Mon Aug 31 17:50:45 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1898" "Mon" "31" "August" "1998" "17:15:09" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "41" "Re: starship-design: Plasma Engine" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1898 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA05995 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 17:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hexadecimal.uoregon.edu (hexadecimal.uoregon.edu [128.223.32.56]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA05983 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 17:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [204.214.99.68]) by hexadecimal.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA08095 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 17:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA07726; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 17:15:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <13803.15501.752893.485720@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <83ef382e.35eb31ec@aol.com> References: <83ef382e.35eb31ec@aol.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.61 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Plasma Engine Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 17:15:09 -0700 (PDT) KellySt@aol.com writes: > In a message dated 8/30/98 11:25:13 AM, lparker@cacaphony.net wrote: > >Correction, AIMSTAR is claiming delta v in excess of 900 km/sec, making it > >almost four times better than the nearest plasma engine. > > > >For interstellar use, we would need to boost this to at least 90,000 > >km/sec.... > > > >Lee > > The fusion systems I used for the Explorer and Fuel/sail designs had spec imp > of over a million. Even with that the fuel ratios for the ships were > stagering. > > Kelly The analysis I did a long time ago, which was in terms of mass-energy conversion and fuel-to-payload ratios, implied that fusion had pretty a exorbitant fuel-to-payload ratio for getting to high relativistic speeds (0.8 - 0.9 c), on the order of 10^6:1 or worse. To get a fuel-to-payload ratio of less than 10:1 we pretty much have to have an antimatter photon rocket. Timothy did indicate that you can get pretty good thrust with using lots of low-velocity reaction mass, but unfortunately if you make the reasonable definition that "fuel" is really "energy source plus reaction mass", this implies an even worse fuel-to-payload ratio, especially if you're trying to go for long continuous acceleration. Sure, you can get theoretically good results if you make a reaction that pushes a lot of mass at a low speed in one direction and a little mass to very high speed in the other, but that only works if the reaction is essentially instantaneous. The ultimate result is that even for really fast interplanetary transportation you don't need to have any major amount of mass-energy conversion, but for relativistic interstellar travel you do; you have to convert a mass larger than the payload to energy to get a payload to speeds of 0.8c or higher, and this requires either an incredible amount of low-efficiency fuel or even a pretty amazing amount of antimatter. From VM Tue Sep 1 07:13:20 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["386" "Mon" "31" "August" "1998" "20:34:33" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "12" "RE: starship-design: Plasma Engine" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 386 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA26929 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 18:39:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA26921 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 18:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p236.gnt.com [204.49.89.236]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id UAA22644; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 20:38:46 -0500 Message-ID: <002401bdd548$ac27e820$365b31cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 In-Reply-To: <83ef382e.35eb31ec@aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Cc: "Starship Design" Subject: RE: starship-design: Plasma Engine Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 20:34:33 -0500 Kelly, > The fusion systems I used for the Explorer and Fuel/sail designs had spec imp > of over a million. Even with that the fuel ratios for the ships were > stagering. Hmmm, now that I think of it, I think I made a serious mistake on that payload ratio of 0.2, that should have been 0.2 percent, which means increasing the number of engines is even less helpful than I said. Lee From VM Tue Sep 1 07:13:20 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1875" "Mon" "31" "August" "1998" "20:34:29" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "38" "RE: starship-design: Plasma Engine" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1875 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA26973 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 18:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA26958 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 18:39:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p236.gnt.com [204.49.89.236]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id UAA22637; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 20:38:43 -0500 Message-ID: <002301bdd548$a9c40780$365b31cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 In-Reply-To: <13803.15501.752893.485720@tzadkiel.efn.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Steve VanDevender" Cc: "Starship Design" Subject: RE: starship-design: Plasma Engine Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 20:34:29 -0500 Steve, > The analysis I did a long time ago, which was in terms of > mass-energy conversion and fuel-to-payload ratios, implied that > fusion had pretty a exorbitant fuel-to-payload ratio for getting > to high relativistic speeds (0.8 - 0.9 c), on the order of 10^6:1 > or worse. To get a fuel-to-payload ratio of less than 10:1 we > pretty much have to have an antimatter photon rocket. > > Timothy did indicate that you can get pretty good thrust with > using lots of low-velocity reaction mass, but unfortunately if > you make the reasonable definition that "fuel" is really "energy > source plus reaction mass", this implies an even worse > fuel-to-payload ratio, especially if you're trying to go for long > continuous acceleration. Sure, you can get theoretically good > results if you make a reaction that pushes a lot of mass at a low > speed in one direction and a little mass to very high speed in > the other, but that only works if the reaction is essentially > instantaneous. > > The ultimate result is that even for really fast interplanetary > transportation you don't need to have any major amount of > mass-energy conversion, but for relativistic interstellar travel > you do; you have to convert a mass larger than the payload to > energy to get a payload to speeds of 0.8c or higher, and this > requires either an incredible amount of low-efficiency fuel or > even a pretty amazing amount of antimatter. All true. To put it simplistically, an interstellar drive needs to expel LOTS of reaction mass at HIGH velocity. Nothing we currently have can do both at the same time. These newer plasma engine concepts come close and the various concepts for "hybrid" antimatter catalyzed fusion may do even better, but they all are still far short of what is really needed for a true interstellar drive. Being a science fiction author is SO much easier... Lee From VM Tue Sep 1 07:13:20 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["299" "Mon" "31" "August" "1998" "20:34:26" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "12" "RE: starship-design: Plasma Engine (VASIMR)" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 299 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA26851 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 18:38:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA26842 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 18:38:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p236.gnt.com [204.49.89.236]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id UAA22630; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 20:38:39 -0500 Message-ID: <002201bdd548$a85bec00$365b31cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 In-Reply-To: <65c59241.35eb31ee@aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Cc: "Starship Design" Subject: RE: starship-design: Plasma Engine (VASIMR) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 20:34:26 -0500 Kelly, > These sound good, but how do they expect to generate the power to run these > engines? Great spec impulse isn't much help if you need to carry along a > > > huge > reactor or something. Well, I'll admit that 40kW is a lot of power, but it is possible, even with current technology. Lee From VM Tue Sep 1 07:13:21 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["753" "Tue" "1" "September" "1998" "00:12:29" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "25" "Re: RE: starship-design: Plasma Engine" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 753 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA25842 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 21:13:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA25825 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 21:13:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id 2OOFa24183 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 00:12:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: RE: starship-design: Plasma Engine Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 00:12:29 EDT In a message dated 8/30/98 12:14:56 PM, lparker@cacaphony.net wrote: >Kelly, > > > >I don't recall seeing any power requirements mentioned anywhere, but a >Lithium Lorentz Force drive requires as a minimum a 30 kW power source. Only >Russian built space reactors currently supply this much, although there is a >40 kW design being tested by NASA. > >There is mention of heating the plasma to power levels of up to 200 kW in >pulses of several seconds, but no mention of how much power that would >require. > >I saw mention of a new, more powerful klystron being tested, but don't >remember the specifics. > >Lee Yeah, the big factor is fuel consumption vrs thrust thing. You want to get up to speed, you'll need to bring a monster fuel tank. Kelly From VM Tue Sep 1 17:10:25 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1147" "Tue" "1" "September" "1998" "19:49:56" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "34" "Re: Re: starship-design: Plasma Engine" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1147 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA19675 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 16:50:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA19666 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 16:50:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id 2GLOa18399 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 19:49:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <73bc1205.35ec8824@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: Re: starship-design: Plasma Engine Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 19:49:56 EDT In a message dated 8/31/98 7:30:25 PM, stevev@efn.org wrote: >KellySt@aol.com writes: > > In a message dated 8/30/98 11:25:13 AM, lparker@cacaphony.net wrote: > > >Correction, AIMSTAR is claiming delta v in excess of 900 km/sec, making it > > >almost four times better than the nearest plasma engine. > > > > > >For interstellar use, we would need to boost this to at least 90,000 > > >km/sec.... > > > > > >Lee > > > > The fusion systems I used for the Explorer and Fuel/sail designs had spec imp > > of over a million. Even with that the fuel ratios for the ships were > > stagering. > > > > Kelly > >The analysis I did a long time ago, which was in terms of >mass-energy conversion and fuel-to-payload ratios, implied that >fusion had pretty a exorbitant fuel-to-payload ratio for getting >to high relativistic speeds (0.8 - 0.9 c), on the order of 10^6:1 >or worse. To get a fuel-to-payload ratio of less than 10:1 we >pretty much have to have an antimatter photon rocket.=== True which is why Explorer and Fuel/Sail peak out at about .4 C. However the 900 KM sec exaust velocity (power source unidentified) would be far worse. Kelly From VM Tue Sep 1 17:10:25 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["538" "Tue" "1" "September" "1998" "19:50:02" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "31" "Re: RE: starship-design: Plasma Engine (VASIMR)" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 538 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA20411 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 16:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA20357 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 16:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id 2WZDa24646 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 19:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <71ee6d57.35ec882a@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: RE: starship-design: Plasma Engine (VASIMR) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 19:50:02 EDT In a message dated 8/31/98 8:42:54 PM, lparker@cacaphony.net wrote: >Kelly, > > > >> These sound good, but how do they expect to generate the power to run > >these > >> engines? Great spec impulse isn't much help if you need to carry along a > >> > > huge > >> reactor or something. > > > >Well, I'll admit that 40kW is a lot of power, but it is possible, even with > >current technology. > > > >Lee Thats not what I ment. To generate the power, you need fuel, lots of it. The fuel weighht is what drage all this stuff down. Kelly From VM Tue Sep 1 17:11:27 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2188" "Tue" "1" "September" "1998" "19:49:59" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "83" "Re: RE: starship-design: Plasma Engine" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2188 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA19692 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 16:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA19680 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 16:50:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id 2CMPa24183 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 19:49:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: RE: starship-design: Plasma Engine Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 19:49:59 EDT In a message dated 8/31/98 8:44:11 PM, lparker@cacaphony.net wrote: >Steve, > > > >> The analysis I did a long time ago, which was in terms of > >> mass-energy conversion and fuel-to-payload ratios, implied that > >> fusion had pretty a exorbitant fuel-to-payload ratio for getting > >> to high relativistic speeds (0.8 - 0.9 c), on the order of 10^6:1 > >> or worse. To get a fuel-to-payload ratio of less than 10:1 we > >> pretty much have to have an antimatter photon rocket. > >> > >> Timothy did indicate that you can get pretty good thrust with > >> using lots of low-velocity reaction mass, but unfortunately if > >> you make the reasonable definition that "fuel" is really "energy > >> source plus reaction mass", this implies an even worse > >> fuel-to-payload ratio, especially if you're trying to go for long > >> continuous acceleration. Sure, you can get theoretically good > >> results if you make a reaction that pushes a lot of mass at a low > >> speed in one direction and a little mass to very high speed in > >> the other, but that only works if the reaction is essentially > >> instantaneous. > >> > >> The ultimate result is that even for really fast interplanetary > >> transportation you don't need to have any major amount of > >> mass-energy conversion, but for relativistic interstellar travel > >> you do; you have to convert a mass larger than the payload to > >> energy to get a payload to speeds of 0.8c or higher, and this > >> requires either an incredible amount of low-efficiency fuel or > >> even a pretty amazing amount of antimatter. > > > >All true. To put it simplistically, an interstellar drive needs to expel > >LOTS of reaction mass at HIGH velocity. Nothing we currently have can do > >both at the same time. These newer plasma engine concepts come close and the > >various concepts for "hybrid" antimatter catalyzed fusion may do even > >better, but they all are still far short of what is really needed for a true > >interstellar drive. > > > >Being a science fiction author is SO much easier... > > > >Lee Gives you an idea why ultra conservative NASA is geting desperate enough to play withthe "breakthrough physics group." ;) Kelly From VM Wed Sep 2 09:58:35 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["314" "Wed" "2" "September" "1998" "07:52:07" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "13" "RE: Re: starship-design: Plasma Engine" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 314 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA29520 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 05:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA29508 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 05:52:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p196.gnt.com [204.49.89.196]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id HAA28430; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 07:52:37 -0500 Message-ID: <000401bdd670$7e085b40$c45931cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 In-Reply-To: <73bc1205.35ec8824@aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Cc: "Starship Design" Subject: RE: Re: starship-design: Plasma Engine Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 07:52:07 -0500 Kelly, > True which is why Explorer and Fuel/Sail peak out at about .4 C. > > However the 900 KM sec exaust velocity (power source unidentified) would be > far worse. That was a 900 km/sec delta v, or total change in velocity, not an exhaust velocity. As such, it is the absolute best we can currently do. Lee From VM Wed Sep 2 09:58:35 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["666" "Wed" "2" "September" "1998" "07:52:09" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "17" "RE: RE: starship-design: Plasma Engine (VASIMR)" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 666 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA29524 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 05:52:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA29515 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 05:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p196.gnt.com [204.49.89.196]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id HAA28437; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 07:52:40 -0500 Message-ID: <000501bdd670$7f580cc0$c45931cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 In-Reply-To: <71ee6d57.35ec882a@aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Cc: "Starship Design" Subject: RE: RE: starship-design: Plasma Engine (VASIMR) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 07:52:09 -0500 Kelly, > Thats not what I ment. To generate the power, you need fuel, lots of it. The > fuel weighht is what drage all this stuff down. Huh? I was talking about a 40 kW space rated nuclear reactor such as those designed for satellites. Yes it is heavy, but not because it requires lots of fuel. The purpose of this power was to drive a very large klystron tube which heats the hydrogen fuel into a plasma. NOW you have lots of fuel - for the engines, not to generate power. This engine approaches fusion engines in efficiency, making it ideal for interplanetary missions. It could even put a probe through one of the nearer star systems within fifty years. Lee From VM Thu Sep 3 10:05:10 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1056" "Thu" "3" "September" "1998" "00:26:30" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "44" "Re: RE: RE: starship-design: Plasma Engine (VASIMR)" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1056 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA11181 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 21:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA11172 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 21:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id VFUUa04369; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 00:26:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <2d37f509.35ee1a76@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: lparker@cacaphony.net, KellySt@aol.com Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: RE: RE: starship-design: Plasma Engine (VASIMR) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 00:26:30 EDT In a message dated 9/2/98 7:52:44 AM, lparker@cacaphony.net wrote: >Kelly, > > > >> Thats not what I ment. To generate the power, you need fuel, lots of it. > >The > >> fuel weighht is what drags all this stuff down. > > > >Huh? I was talking about a 40 kW space rated nuclear reactor such as those > >designed for satellites. Yes it is heavy, but not because it requires lots > >of fuel. The purpose of this power was to drive a very large klystron tube > >which heats the hydrogen fuel into a plasma. NOW you have lots of fuel - for > >the engines, not to generate power. > > > >This engine approaches fusion engines in efficiency, making it ideal for > >interplanetary missions. It could even put a probe through one of the nearer > >star systems within fifty years. > > > >Lee I.E. the reactor fisionables are the fuel, and are heavy compared to fusion fuel to generate the same power. This sounds like it would be pretty heavy compared to a direct fusion system. I.E. all the fusion energy directly converted to exaust kinetic energy. Kelly From VM Thu Sep 3 10:05:10 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["488" "Thu" "3" "September" "1998" "00:26:28" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "33" "Re: RE: Re: starship-design: Plasma Engine" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 488 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA11156 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 21:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA11150 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 21:27:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id 2HQUa20020 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 00:26:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: RE: Re: starship-design: Plasma Engine Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 00:26:28 EDT In a message dated 9/2/98 7:52:41 AM, lparker@cacaphony.net wrote: >Kelly, > > > > > >> True which is why Explorer and Fuel/Sail peak out at about .4 C. > >> > >> However the 900 KM sec exaust velocity (power source unidentified) would > >be > >> far worse. > > > >That was a 900 km/sec delta v, or total change in velocity, not an exhaust > >velocity. As such, it is the absolute best we can currently do. > > > >Lee Oh, sory I thought you were talking about exaust velocity. Kelly From VM Thu Sep 3 10:05:10 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["614" "Thu" "3" "September" "1998" "08:25:18" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "16" "RE: RE: RE: starship-design: Plasma Engine (VASIMR)" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 614 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA17835 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 06:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA17830 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 06:25:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p235.gnt.com [204.49.89.235]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id IAA20990; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 08:25:40 -0500 Message-ID: <001701bdd73e$4be53a60$eb5931cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <2d37f509.35ee1a76@aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Cc: "Starship Design" Subject: RE: RE: RE: starship-design: Plasma Engine (VASIMR) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 08:25:18 -0500 Kelly, > I.E. the reactor fisionables are the fuel, and are heavy compared > to fusion > fuel to generate the same power. This sounds like it would be > pretty heavy > compared to a direct fusion system. I.E. all the fusion energy directly > converted to exaust kinetic energy. No, it still uses hydrogen as fuel. The reactor fissionables are actually an insignificant part of the mass. Especially compared to the mass requirements of a true fusion system. Think of the reactor and its fissionables as simply being the "engine", a 40 kW reactor weighs only slightly more than the RTG that powers Cassini. Lee From VM Tue Sep 8 15:01:08 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["793" "Fri" "4" "September" "1998" "23:07:44" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "39" "Re: RE: RE: RE: starship-design: Plasma Engine (VASIMR)" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 793 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA27000 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 20:08:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA26994 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 20:08:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id 2OWZa09042 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 23:07:44 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: RE: RE: RE: starship-design: Plasma Engine (VASIMR) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 23:07:44 EDT In a message dated 9/3/98 8:25:52 AM, lparker@cacaphony.net wrote: >Kelly, > > > >> I.E. the reactor fisionables are the fuel, and are heavy compared > >> to fusion > >> fuel to generate the same power. This sounds like it would be > >> pretty heavy > >> compared to a direct fusion system. I.E. all the fusion energy directly > >> converted to exaust kinetic energy. > > > >No, it still uses hydrogen as fuel. The reactor fissionables are actually an > >insignificant part of the mass. Especially compared to the mass requirements > >of a true fusion system. Think of the reactor and its fissionables as simply > >being the "engine", a 40 kW reactor weighs only slightly more than the RTG > >that powers Cassini. > > > >Lee How much does it weigh.? How much thrust does it give? Kelly From VM Tue Sep 8 15:01:09 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1057" "Sun" "6" "September" "1998" "06:53:01" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "36" "starship-design: Plasma Engine - VASIMR" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1057 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA27856 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 04:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA27848 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 04:54:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p235.gnt.com [204.49.89.235]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id GAA16401 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 06:54:03 -0500 Message-ID: <000001bdd98c$e69adec0$eb5931cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01BDD962.FDD59FA0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship Design" Subject: starship-design: Plasma Engine - VASIMR Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 06:53:01 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BDD962.FDD59FA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kelly, I don't have much in specifics on the plasma engine. This link is about all there is. There used to be a great deal on the web earlier this year, but most of those pages are gone (and the ones I could find are all blank, hmmm). I am fairly certain that it is lighter than AIMSTAR, but not by much. I already posted links to the AIMSTAR site. If you need me to post them again let me know. Here is the link to CNN's story. http://cnn.com/TECH/space/9808/26/holliman/ Lee ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BDD962.FDD59FA0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name=" If the suit fits ... - August 26, 1998.url" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=" If the suit fits ... - August 26, 1998.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [InternetShortcut] URL=http://cnn.com/TECH/space/9808/26/holliman/ Modified=809EE0E685D9BD0100 ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BDD962.FDD59FA0-- From VM Tue Sep 8 15:01:09 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["799" "Mon" "7" "September" "1998" "01:54:14" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "42" "Re: starship-design: Plasma Engine - VASIMR" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 799 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA08219 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 22:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA08209 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 22:55:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id 2JTKa11275 for ; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 01:54:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Plasma Engine - VASIMR Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 01:54:14 EDT In a message dated 9/6/98 7:00:08 AM, lparker@cacaphony.net wrote: > Kelly, > > > >I don't have much in specifics on the plasma engine. This link is about all > >there is. There used to be a great deal on the web earlier this year, but > >most of those pages are gone (and the ones I could find are all blank, > >hmmm). Sounds like the web. Very fadish. Nothing stays on very long. >I am fairly certain that it is lighter than AIMSTAR, but not by much. I > >already posted links to the AIMSTAR site. If you need me to post them again > >let me know. Ok, thanks for the links. Thou I doubt CNN will have much tech detail. I would have thought the NASA site would stay up? Oh well. >Here is the link to CNN's story. > > > > http://cnn.com/TECH/space/9808/26/holliman/ > > > >Lee Kelly From VM Tue Sep 8 15:01:09 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["448" "Mon" "7" "September" "1998" "10:03:52" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "12" "RE: starship-design: Plasma Engine - VASIMR" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 448 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA05883 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 08:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA05875 for ; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 08:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p220.gnt.com [204.49.89.220]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id KAA23141; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 10:04:39 -0500 Message-ID: <000001bdda70$ba219fc0$dc5931cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Cc: "Starship Design" Subject: RE: starship-design: Plasma Engine - VASIMR Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 10:03:52 -0500 Kelly, The link and the page at the University of Texas are still there, just no information. There were two tables of performance data from the last test but both tables' links are broken. I have tried another site that mirrors the University site with the same results. That was one of the reasons I posted the request for information in the first place. I thought someone else might be familiar with this research and could tell me more. Lee From VM Mon Sep 14 23:22:38 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1769" "Mon" "14" "September" "1998" "13:09:38" "-0300" "Antonio C T Rocha" "arocha@bsb.nutecnet.com.br" nil "65" "Re: starship-design: Plasma Engine - VASIMR" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1769 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA05689 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:13:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from srv1-bsb.bsb.nutecnet.com.br (srv1.bsb.nutecnet.com.br [200.252.253.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA05613 for ; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsb.nutecnet.com.br ([200.252.253.95]) by srv1-bsb.bsb.nutecnet.com.br (8.8.5/SCA-6.6) with ESMTP id NAA10932; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 13:11:18 -0300 (BRA) Message-ID: <35FD3FC2.CF45F539@bsb.nutecnet.com.br> Organization: is an unstable subset of reality X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <000001bdda70$ba219fc0$dc5931cc@lparker> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Antonio C T Rocha From: Antonio C T Rocha Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Starship Design , Edson Fonseca Subject: Re: starship-design: Plasma Engine - VASIMR Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 13:09:38 -0300 http://positron.aps.org/BAPSDPP97/abs/S7200.html http://positron.aps.org/BAPSDPP97/tocp.html#SpThpM2.001 http://www.langhe.com/marte/guidone.htm http://www.logbarex.se/Svensk/TunaNet/Utbildning%20och%20Kunskap/OneNet%20Vetenskap/Astronomy%20&%20Space/%2335646 http://www.hpc.uh.edu/~ilin/ http://www.quepasa.cl/revista/1371/28.html http://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/space_level2/world2.html http://www.mse-ta.com/news/magnozzl.htm http://spacsun.rice.edu/baas.html http://flux.aps.org/meetings/BAPSDPP96/abs/S550041.html http://flux.aps.org/meetings/BAPSDPP96/toc7.html#S7P.041 http://positron.aps.org/BAPSDPP97/abs/S5800004.html http://eo1.gsfc.nasa.gov/technology/ppt.html <<< URL n.found? http://cougarxp.princeton.edu:2112/eppdyl/projects/lilfa.html <<< no response http://positron.aps.org/BAPSDPP97/abs/S7800012.html http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/RT1995/5000/5330m.htm http://positron.aps.org/BAPSDPP97/abs/G5800004.html http://scp.caltech.edu/html/ion_thruster_simulations.html http://ctr-sgi1.stanford.edu/CITS/hall_main.html http://flux.aps.org/meetings/BAPSPC95/abs/SJ0303.html Practical: http://positron.aps.org/BAPSDPP97/abs/S5800.html http://positron.aps.org/BAPSDPP97/abs/S2800002.html http://flux.aps.org/meetings/BAPSDPP96/abs/S740012.html http://positron.aps.org/BAPSDPP97/abs/S4300001.html http://flux.aps.org/meetings/BAPSDPP96/abs/G450002.html http://positron.aps.org/BAPSDPP97/abs/G1600004.html http://flux.aps.org/meetings/BAPSDPP96/abs/G550037.html http://www.fusion.kth.se/~andrej/Research/pub/CPC95/node18.html Primer : http://www.naui.com/solar/plasma.html http://burster.bgu.ac.il/~gedalin/fp83.html http://e-plasma.physics.ucla.edu/ipels/space-table/space_table_abstracts/N_Sato.html etc....... From VM Tue Sep 15 23:10:29 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["694" "Tue" "15" "September" "1998" "06:59:26" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "22" "starship-design: VentureStar . Gallery . Images . Cameras (http://www.venturestar.com/pages/gall" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 694 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA05382 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 07:14:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA05372 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 07:14:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p219.gnt.com [204.49.89.219]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id HAA06793 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 07:00:04 -0500 Message-ID: <000001bde0a0$4a4ea860$db5931cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01BDE076.61804180" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship Design" Subject: starship-design: VentureStar . Gallery . Images . Cameras (http://www.venturestar.com/pages/gall Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 06:59:26 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BDE076.61804180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Take a look at this site... http://www.venturestar.com/pages/gallery/cameras/assemblycams.cgi ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BDE076.61804180 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="VentureStar . Gallery . Images . Cameras.url" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="VentureStar . Gallery . Images . Cameras.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.venturestar.com/pages/gallery/cameras/assemblycams.cgi Modified=C098703656E0BD01F2 ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BDE076.61804180-- From VM Mon Sep 21 11:14:51 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["349" "Mon" "21" "September" "1998" "02:21:33" "EDT" "GVoigt8259@aol.com" "GVoigt8259@aol.com" nil "10" "starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur point?" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 349 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA23788 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA23780 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:03:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA02208 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 23:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from GVoigt8259@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 2YBNa17798 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 02:21:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <95a17861.3605f06d@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Casablanca - Windows sub 214 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: GVoigt8259@aol.com From: GVoigt8259@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur point? Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 02:21:33 EDT Hi sir, Forgive me, I'm just a lowly chemist with a huge interest in astronomy and physics. The most plausible and acheivable goal for an STL (Slower than light) ship sounds like a Bussard RAMJET (Elegent design) which could attain speeds in excess of 50% the speed of light. You have a better idea? i want to know. write me back Garth Voigt From VM Mon Sep 21 13:24:54 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["820" "Mon" "21" "September" "1998" "12:19:47" "-0700" "N. Lindberg" "nlindber@u.washington.edu" nil "25" "Re: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur point?" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 820 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA00936 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (root@jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA00925 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:19:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dante30.u.washington.edu (nlindber@dante30.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.104]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id MAA50126 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:19:47 -0700 Received: from localhost (nlindber@localhost) by dante30.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id MAA21704 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:19:47 -0700 In-Reply-To: <95a17861.3605f06d@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "N. Lindberg" From: "N. Lindberg" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship design Subject: Re: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur point? Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:19:47 -0700 (PDT) On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 GVoigt8259@aol.com wrote: > Hi sir, > > Forgive me, I'm just a lowly chemist with a huge interest in astronomy and > physics. The most plausible and acheivable goal for an STL (Slower than > light) ship sounds like a Bussard RAMJET (Elegent design) which could attain > speeds in excess of 50% the speed of light. > > You have a better idea? i want to know. write me back > > Garth Voigt > The Bussard ramjet idea is indeed elegant. Unfortunately, the interstellar medium is too thin to make this really practical. Also, i understand that the interstellar medium is especially thin locally for some reason (i forget). Bad luck. Check out the L.I.T pages having to do with the engine for the "Explorer" type starship, I think it's explained better there.` Best regards, Nels Lindberg From VM Mon Sep 21 13:24:54 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["828" "Mon" "21" "September" "1998" "14:17:00" "-0700" "Kyle R. Mcallister" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "20" "Re: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur point?" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 828 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA01049 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA01017 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:19:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OEMComputer (pm6-106.gpt.infi.net [207.0.195.106]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA06501 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:19:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3606C24C.16D1@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <95a17861.3605f06d@aol.com> <3606C214.5CC1@sunherald.infi.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur point? Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 14:17:00 -0700 GVoigt8259@aol.com wrote: > > Hi sir, > > Forgive me, I'm just a lowly chemist with a huge interest in astronomy and > physics. The most plausible and acheivable goal for an STL (Slower than > light) ship sounds like a Bussard RAMJET (Elegent design) which could attain > speeds in excess of 50% the speed of light. > > You have a better idea? i want to know. write me back A Bussard Ramjet will get you up to 30%c, if interstellar hydrogen fuel is abundant enough, but will not go much faster. Drag with the interstellar medium will soon equal thrusting ratio, and acceleration will cease. This is not my idea, but one gleaned from quite a bit of study on ramjets. If you want to really use the vacuum of space for travel, you are venturing into something completely different, and not yet understood. Kyle R. Mcallister From VM Mon Sep 21 15:52:07 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1139" "Mon" "21" "September" "1998" "21:54:05" "+0100" "A West" "andrew@hmm.u-net.com" nil "24" "Re: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur point?" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1139 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA00464 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:44:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mserv1a.u-net.net (mserv1a.u-net.net [195.102.240.34]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA00397 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (daishi) [195.102.195.183] by mserv1a.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0zLEhB-0003zH-00; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 23:44:37 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980921215405.0088a100@mail.u-net.com> X-Sender: andrew-hmm@mail.u-net.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) In-Reply-To: <3606C24C.16D1@sunherald.infi.net> References: <95a17861.3605f06d@aol.com> <3606C214.5CC1@sunherald.infi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: A West From: A West Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" , starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur point? Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:54:05 +0100 >> Forgive me, I'm just a lowly chemist with a huge interest in astronomy and >> physics. The most plausible and acheivable goal for an STL (Slower than >> light) ship sounds like a Bussard RAMJET (Elegent design) which could attain >> speeds in excess of 50% the speed of light. >> >> You have a better idea? i want to know. write me back > >A Bussard Ramjet will get you up to 30%c, if interstellar hydrogen fuel >is abundant enough, but will not go much faster. Drag with the >interstellar medium will soon equal thrusting ratio, and acceleration >will cease. This is not my idea, but one gleaned from quite a bit of >study on ramjets. If you want to really use the vacuum of space for >travel, you are venturing into something completely different, and not >yet understood. I believe there is increasing evidence that there are chains of organic molecules evenly spread throught space (I assume this means through-out our galaxy...) which could possibly explain away some of the 99% missing matter we can observe through gravitational effects. If you could use this as fuel, then there would be an abundant supply. Andrew West From VM Tue Sep 22 16:36:49 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["56" "Tue" "22" "September" "1998" "16:52:08" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "5" "RE: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur point?" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 56 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA15589 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:52:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA15560 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p225.gnt.com [204.49.89.225]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id QAA17904; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:52:47 -0500 Message-ID: <000301bde673$3f71ebe0$e15931cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "N. Lindberg" Cc: "Starship Design" Subject: RE: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur point? Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:52:08 -0500 Nels, Bubbles, we're in the middle of a bubble... Lee From VM Tue Sep 22 16:36:49 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1313" "Tue" "22" "September" "1998" "16:52:11" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "30" "FW: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur point?" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1313 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA15558 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:53:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA15506 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p225.gnt.com [204.49.89.225]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id QAA17915 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:52:51 -0500 Message-ID: <000401bde673$40c19d60$e15931cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship Design" Subject: FW: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur point? Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:52:11 -0500 Sorry, I sent this to Garth and forgot to cc the group... -----Original Message----- From: L. Parker [mailto:lparker@cacaphony.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 4:44 PM To: GVoigt8259@aol.com Subject: RE: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur point? Garth, The original Bussard Ramjet concept, although meeting the basic interstellar drive requirements of not carrying around huge amounts of fuel, quickly runs into problems. Space is not homogeneous, that is, the concentration of interstellar hydrogen and other matter is not consistent throughout space. It is thought that a concentration of hydrogen of 1 atom per cubic centimeter is necessary for a ramjet to work. Unfortunately, our solar system is located in the middle of a giant cosmic "soap bubble" where the interior concentrations of hydrogen are far lower than what is necessary for a ramjet. I'm not so sure about Kyle's assertion that drag places an upper limit of .3c on a ramjet's velocity. I have also studied them for almost twenty years and don't recall having ever seen that statement. (Kyle, citation please?) It may be that once the craft is up to a certain speed, the "apparent" density might be great enough to sustain a decent acceleration. Perhaps a hybrid between onboard tankage and scoop collection... Lee From VM Wed Sep 23 10:00:39 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["142" "Tue" "22" "September" "1998" "19:49:09" "-0700" "N. Lindberg" "nlindber@u.washington.edu" nil "11" "RE: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur point?" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 142 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA03255 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 19:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (root@jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA03246 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 19:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dante09.u.washington.edu (nlindber@dante09.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.35]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id TAA38928 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 19:49:10 -0700 Received: from localhost (nlindber@localhost) by dante09.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id TAA57298 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 19:49:09 -0700 In-Reply-To: <000301bde673$3f71ebe0$e15931cc@lparker> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "N. Lindberg" From: "N. Lindberg" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship design Subject: RE: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur point? Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 19:49:09 -0700 (PDT) On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, L. Parker wrote: > Nels, > > Bubbles, we're in the middle of a bubble... > > Lee > Lee, What causes the bubble? Nels From VM Wed Sep 23 10:00:39 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["215" "Tue" "22" "September" "1998" "22:13:44" "-0700" "Kyle R. Mcallister" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "8" "Re: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur point?" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 215 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA09355 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA09337 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:16:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OEMComputer (pm5-24.gpt.infi.net [207.0.195.24]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA19979 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 23:16:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <36088388.2361@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur point? Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 22:13:44 -0700 > What causes the bubble? > Nels Nearby supernova explosion. The shock front cleanses the region surrouding the supernova of interstellar elements (hydrogen, helium, rarer heavy elements, etc.) Kyle R. Mcallister From VM Wed Sep 23 10:00:39 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2098" "Tue" "22" "September" "1998" "22:30:26" "-0700" "Kyle R. Mcallister" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "36" "Re: FW: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur point?" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2098 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA13466 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:33:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA13444 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:33:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OEMComputer (pm5-24.gpt.infi.net [207.0.195.24]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA01486 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 23:33:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <36088772.3ACF@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <000401bde673$40c19d60$e15931cc@lparker> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: FW: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur point? Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 22:30:26 -0700 > I'm not so sure about Kyle's assertion that drag places an upper limit of > .3c on a ramjet's velocity. I have also studied them for almost twenty years > and don't recall having ever seen that statement. (Kyle, citation please?) My mistake...it wasn't 30%c; it was 10%c as an upper limit. Nick Herbert, PhD, has done his work on this, and here is your requested citation: "In 1960 Robert Bussard of TRW Corporation proposed using the interstellar medium itself--which contains a few hydrogen atoms per cubic centimeter--as a rocket fuel. The fact that the ships fuel is obtained from the outside eliminates the exhaust-velocity limit; the Bussard jet is capable of efficiently accelerating to speeds greater than its own exhaust. The Bussard ramjet would employ an enormous scoop constructed out of electromagnetic fields to collect and funnel hydrogen into a nuclear-reaction motor. The Bussard jet actually becomes more efficient at high speeds, because the faster it goes, the more hydrogen it collects. Many science fiction writers have used Bussard ramjets in their flights of fancy, however the Bussard principle suffers from the fact that at high ship speeds the fuel is not standing still but impacts the ship's scoop at enormous velocity. The incoming fuel constitutes a huge headwind, which becomes increasingly difficult to overcome as the ship goes faster. The speed of the Bussard jet soon reaches an upper limit--about 10 percent of light speed--where thrust is equal to wind resistance and the ship can accelerate no further." That from Nick Herbert's book "Faster than light: superluminal loopholes in physics." It might get you to 30%c in this thinned out region, if you can get enough fuel. But then, there is our viscious fuel/velocity circle again. It's just my opinion, and I don't want to start a thread on this, but we need two things if we ever wish to seriously attempt interstellar flight: 1. A way to interact with spacetime to provide fuel-less propulsion, and 2. A method of travelling faster than light. Both of which I believe are possible. Kyle R. Mcallister From VM Wed Sep 23 10:00:39 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["459" "Tue" "22" "September" "1998" "22:38:02" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "15" "RE: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur point?" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 459 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA14420 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:39:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA14415 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:39:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p211.gnt.com [204.49.89.211]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id WAA11082; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 22:38:58 -0500 Message-ID: <000a01bde6a3$925f0380$e15931cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "N. Lindberg" Cc: "Starship Design" Subject: RE: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur point? Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 22:38:02 -0500 > Lee, > What causes the bubble? > Nels > Something about the big bang and chaos and the way the universe formed. I don't remember the whole theory, but I know that they have been able to model it using chaos theory. Anyway, the Universe looks like a big tub full of soap bubbles with most of the stars and matter concentrated in the "film" of the bubbles. We aren't in the "film", we're in the middle of one. I've got a picture around here somewhere. Lee From VM Wed Sep 23 10:00:39 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["3604" "Wed" "23" "September" "1998" "09:52:45" "+0100" "Walker, Chris" "Chris.Walker@BSKYB.COM" "<199809230843.JAA04936@ns0.sky.co.uk>" "63" "RE: FW: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur poi nt?" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 3604 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA05042 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 01:54:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns0.sky.co.uk (mail.sky.co.uk [193.117.250.170]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA05037 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 01:54:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ost_ntsrvbrhd.bskyb.com (ost_ntsrvbrhd [195.153.219.190]) by ns0.sky.co.uk (8.7.1/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA04936 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:43:27 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199809230843.JAA04936@ns0.sky.co.uk> Received: by OST_NTSRVBRHD with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:50:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_000_01BDE6CF.44B010D0" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Walker, Chris" From: "Walker, Chris" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: FW: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur poi nt? Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:52:45 +0100 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01BDE6CF.44B010D0 Content-Type: text/plain Kyle, regarding the discussion on the Bussard ramjet, you mentioned that: > we need two things if we ever wish to seriously attempt > interstellar flight: 1. A way to interact with spacetime to provide > fuel-less propulsion, and 2. A method of travelling faster than light. > Both of which I believe are possible. I agree with both statements. However, I am curious as to your reason(s) *why* you believe FTL travel is possible. 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"^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 951 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA06793 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 02:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sabik.tdb.uu.se (WLTi40TCeQxuAmHWsBb6idwfGiZJwz4U@sabik.tdb.uu.se [130.238.138.70]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA06779 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 02:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (f96bni@localhost) by sabik.tdb.uu.se (8.8.8/8.8.8/STUD_1.1) with SMTP id LAA04411; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:05:26 +0200 (MET DST) X-Sender: f96bni@sabik.tdb.uu.se In-Reply-To: <199809230843.JAA04936@ns0.sky.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Bjorn Nilsson From: Bjorn Nilsson Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Walker, Chris" cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: FW: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur poi nt? Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:05:25 +0200 (MET DST) On Wed, 23 Sep 1998, Walker, Chris wrote: > Kyle, > > regarding the discussion on the Bussard ramjet, you mentioned that: > > > we need two things if we ever wish to seriously attempt > > interstellar flight: 1. A way to interact with spacetime to provide > > fuel-less propulsion, and 2. A method of travelling faster than light. > > Both of which I believe are possible. > > I agree with both statements. However, I am curious as to your reason(s) > *why* you believe FTL travel is possible. > > Chris Walker > Well I would also be VERY interested in WHY you think FTL is posible... However I do not fully agree that those two condintions are that neccesary, as long as you can fulfill the 1st one (reactionless drives) then you can probably build a reasonably unexpensive (in global terms) starship to get to the nearby stars in a decade or so. That should be enough for the so called "planet-hoping" method of space conquest IMO. Bjorn From VM Wed Sep 23 10:00:39 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4992" "Wed" "23" "September" "1998" "10:34:06" "+0100" "Walker, Chris" "Chris.Walker@BSKYB.COM" nil "81" "RE: FW: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur poi nt?" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 4992 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA11421 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 02:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns0.sky.co.uk (mail.sky.co.uk [193.117.250.170]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA11402 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 02:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ost_ntsrvbrhd.bskyb.com (ost_ntsrvbrhd [195.153.219.190]) by ns0.sky.co.uk (8.7.1/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA06837 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:26:32 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199809230926.KAA06837@ns0.sky.co.uk> Received: by OST_NTSRVBRHD with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:34:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_000_01BDE6D5.493763D2" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Walker, Chris" From: "Walker, Chris" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Bjorn Nilsson Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: FW: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur poi nt? Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:34:06 +0100 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01BDE6D5.493763D2 Content-Type: text/plain Bjorn, I meant that I agreed that FTL travel was *necessary* for attempting serious interstellar exploration, rather than I thought FTL travel was *possible*. I'm still learning much about the various theories regarding this subject, so do not feel qualified to comment on whether or not it is possible - that's why I was curious as to Kyle's beliefs in FTL flight. The planet-hopping method may be a more realistic/achievable goal in the shorter term (next century), given that without a major breakthrough in propulsion technology, FTL flight may not be achieved for some considerable time. It seems to me that production of a working reactionless drive is more within our immediate reach than breaking the light barrier. However, even to go from planet to planet within "a decade or so" per hop - whilst far quicker than anything we could acheive today - would make for slow exploration of our surroundings. Hence my belief that FTL travel is necessary for serious and long-distance space exploration. Does anyone know what is (theoretically) meant to happen re. time dilation when you travel FTL? (eg. travelling back in time?) Chris Walker ------_=_NextPart_000_01BDE6D5.493763D2 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IgQJAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQSAAQBGAAAAUkU6IEZXOiBzdGFyc2hpcC1kZXNpZ246IEludGVy c3RlbGxhciB0cmF2ZWwtdXNpbmcgdmFjdXVtLi51ciBwb2kgbnQ/AO4YAQmAAQAhAAAAQUY5MkQy QjUxNjUyRDIxMThEQzk0NDQ1NTM1NDAwMDAA3wYBIIADAA4AAADOBwkAFwAKACEAOAADAFsBAQWA AwAOAAAAzgcJABcACgAiAAYAAwAqAQENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABA5AGAAAJAAArAAAACwACAAEAAAAD AC4AAAAAAEAAOQCgVfRO1ea9AR4AcAABAAAAQgAAAEZXOiBzdGFyc2hpcC1kZXNpZ246IEludGVy c3RlbGxhciB0cmF2ZWwtdXNpbmcgdmFjdXVtLi51ciBwb2kgbnQ/AAAAAgFxAAEAAAAbAAAAAb3m 0P4bK5Yvk1LAEdKimwAIxyiZ0gAAdQqwAAIBCRABAAAA3gMAANoDAAA+BQAATFpGdZOb1NnTAAoB CjM2AeggAqQD4wkCAGNoCsBzZXQwNiAHEwKAfQqACMggOzEJbzI1NQKACoF1Y5sAUAsDYwBBC2Bu ZwHQpDU3DGBsbgIgZQumyCBCagWwbiwKogqEuQqASSAHgABwBUB0ECArBUAXAGEJwmQXdEZUQkwX cHJhdmUDIHeqYQQgKhUwYweQcwrAOHkqIAIQBcAXoHRl5m0FMAuAZyAQUAUQCGDfBCALgBrAEEAa wGwLYAXAfGV4C1AFsBegG4AWICD9HPFoBJAXcgOgFwAXgAhgRGdoGJ8qcG8EEGmRAmBlKi4XwCdt G0B7GwAcUCAgMArAAwAbIW0tE5BoF+AG4HUXYmUg/nYKwBuDHZEFsAiQBCAJcD5nCxEbEhdxBAAb QHViCmoFkHQdUHNvIGQ3JVAVEAVAZgngAyBxdb8HQAaQCJAYQSVQBaBtB4B/F1ECIBlQHaAdkwWx JaJppyiBBCAf1iAtF3MnBCDtJ7B5F8EZYmMIcRuSGXHZJtFLeSAwKfFiGTAIkLcD0BvBHsNmJmAe kS4WSk5UInELURUwdC0eYHDecCFzJ9EEcBcQYSpALBB/F+AXEAWwIoAJcCZRIMFjNi8A0CRwZSKg KVJnb/cHQCyCImJzHmAAIB2yBJD1IKAoFTB4BUAZ0AIwCHDkeSkdUGdpGSAyYheh7wPwHlIFQDBB YRXxLAAwsV5rF4ADYB6BLIJwA2BwfxTwAJAngRrAEBAVEAkAZ/55HVAsyC/DJaIwEjFjGDH/GmIl QAeAJvEAgQSBMbMbAP8HgCBhBUAQUBrQK1M7AReDXTdBZBOQHRIncGYwMXd9BbBrGxIwsT3zIDAE EWT/BRAZICjCMGM1QiyRCGEbwP8nISQAF6AwkyHRHeM2QxsSOyJiOQRiCsAIgiBgSG/6dzpRch1Q OlEyYSVQMgC/GlADYS5lJsJGJUDVIjBA3QWBYQEAKCIlQCIo8B2x/y7hKYEnsAMQHCAaUArBJjDt MSBrHbYAcHlA8hswRLBvJvEU8BhAMVFlQBIm0GT/L+FJMUujAMBKQDqUCQAH4L8cqT5CQUIksEQg CGBuJAL+c0RxCfAZ0BcQL/IsMhhf/ySBGbc6lBtlAHAYQAkAFIDeLSQAHCAAcFBxcwqwUHFzHKkt a0RvB5FK0RUhIL5rFRAH4CewF6EkgSgjI/cQYDEgB0BsNFAXFiVQECD/LwA0wQlwIGA8AiVgAxBO lLcnsQOgV0B1GOYYsT8zgP8jwFqBGQMmYBshRABKMDJDaQdxPykWSkM2oCSBVy8HQEpBFkQREQBg 0AAAAwD9P1IDAAAeAEIQAQAAADoAAAA8UGluZS5HU08uMy45Ni45ODA5MjMxMTAyMTMuNDE1N0Et MTAwMDAwQHNhYmlrLnRkYi51dS5zZT4AAAALAAOACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAADhQAAAAAA AAMABYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABCFAAAAAAAAAwAAgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAA UoUAAHQQAAAeAAGACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABUhQAAAQAAAAUAAAA4LjAyAAAAAAMAAoAI IAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAGFAAAAAAAACwAEgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAADoUAAAAA AAADAAaACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAARhQAAAAAAAAMAB4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAA ABiFAAAAAAAAHgAIgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAANoUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4ACYAIIAYA AAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADeFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAAqACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA4 hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAB4AMUABAAAAEAAAAFdBTEtFUkM2MEYxODM5 MgADABpAAAAAAB4AMEABAAAAEAAAAFdBTEtFUkM2MEYxODM5MgADABlAAAAAAAMAgBD/////AgH5 PwEAAABOAAAAAAAAANynQMjAQhAatLkIACsv4YIBAAAABgAAAC9PPUJTS1lCL09VPU9TVEVSTEVZ L0NOPU1TTUFJTC9DTj1XQUxLRVJDNjBGMTgzOTIAAAAeAPg/AQAAAA4AAABXYWxrZXIsIENocmlz AAAAHgA4QAEAAAAQAAAAV0FMS0VSQzYwRjE4MzkyAAIB+z8BAAAATgAAAAAAAADcp0DIwEIQGrS5 CAArL+GCAQAAAAYAAAAvTz1CU0tZQi9PVT1PU1RFUkxFWS9DTj1NU01BSUwvQ049V0FMS0VSQzYw RjE4MzkyAAAAHgD6PwEAAAAOAAAAV2Fsa2VyLCBDaHJpcwAAAB4AOUABAAAAEAAAAFdBTEtFUkM2 MEYxODM5MgBAAAcwwHlD0tLmvQFAAAgw0mM3SdXmvQEeAD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAB4AHQ4B AAAAQgAAAEZXOiBzdGFyc2hpcC1kZXNpZ246IEludGVyc3RlbGxhciB0cmF2ZWwtdXNpbmcgdmFj dXVtLi51ciBwb2kgbnQ/AAAACwApAAAAAAALACMAAAAAAAMABhDpT11hAwAHELEDAAADABAQAAAA AAMAERAAAAAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAAQkpPUk4sSU1FQU5UVEhBVElBR1JFRURUSEFURlRMVFJBVkVM V0FTKk5FQ0VTU0FSWSpGT1JBVFRFTVBUSU5HU0VSSU9VU0lOVEVSU1RFTExBUkVYUExPUkFUSU9O LFJBVEhFUgAAAAAwGg== ------_=_NextPart_000_01BDE6D5.493763D2-- From VM Wed Sep 23 10:00:39 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3732" "Wed" "23" "September" "1998" "21:52:08" "+1000" "AJ Crowl" "ajcrowlx2@ozemail.com.au" nil "81" "Re: FW: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur poi nt?" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 3732 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA28074 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 04:53:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fep6.mail.ozemail.net (fep6.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.123]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA28069 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 04:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ozemail.com.au (slbne4p48.ozemail.com.au [203.108.251.48]) by fep6.mail.ozemail.net (8.9.0/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA12689 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 21:53:22 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <3608E0E2.AA14C3C3@ozemail.com.au> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199809230926.KAA06837@ns0.sky.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: AJ Crowl From: AJ Crowl Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: FW: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur poi nt? Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 21:52:08 +1000 Hi Group, Hope I got this right. First time I've used a mailing list. Walker, Chris wrote: > Bjorn, > > I meant that I agreed that FTL travel was *necessary* for attempting serious > interstellar exploration, rather than I thought FTL travel was *possible*. > I'm still learning much about the various theories regarding this subject, > so do not feel qualified to comment on whether or not it is possible - > that's why I was curious as to Kyle's beliefs in FTL flight. "Serious Interstellar exploration" - what does that involve? What are you trying to achieve and on whose timescale? The Galaxy can be explored by replicating von Neumann probes in a few hundred thousand years. That's pretty serious exploration. I guess it's not "Star Trek" timescale [22% of the Galaxy had been surveyed in 300 years, according to one episode] but then who's counting? If you want a rapid survey of planetary systems then invest in gravity-lens telescopes or something equally powerful. Then you could map planets across tens to thousands of light years. > > > The planet-hopping method may be a more realistic/achievable goal in the > shorter term (next century), given that without a major breakthrough in > propulsion technology, FTL flight may not be achieved for some considerable > time. AFAIK there's not much chance of interstellar travel on a human timescale within 50 years. By 2050 I expect particle beam propelled micro-probes will be possible, but not much else. > It seems to me that production of a working reactionless drive is more > within our immediate reach than breaking the light barrier. Seems FTL is more likely than inertialess drives. At least we know of physical processes that have involved FTL in the past [cosmic expansion], whereas there's nothing known that can alter inertia. Haisch and Puthoff's electromagnetic theory of inertia is a start, but there's no guarantee that inertia can be changed. > However, even to > go from planet to planet within "a decade or so" per hop - whilst far > quicker than anything we could acheive today - would make for slow > exploration of our surroundings. Like I said it'd be easier with a telescope. We travel to other stars not to explore, but to stay and live. That's the only reasonable justification. Until someone builds a cheap FTL drive that is. How about a Superspace Translocator? Transfers matter from one point to another via a short-cut through all eleven dimensions. > Hence my belief that FTL travel is > necessary for serious and long-distance space exploration. > > Does anyone know what is (theoretically) meant to happen re. time dilation > when you travel FTL? (eg. travelling back in time?) Time reversal is supposed to occur, though I could never work out why. "Events preceding their effects" - one result of space-like motion [FTL], though I still don't see how. A distant observer might see the events as occuring out of order, but how does that then violate causality? Locally nothing odd has occurred. No one has ever gone FTL so who can say? Using the Alcubierre drive [if the energy problem can ever be solved] it's possible to travel FTL without time distortion because locally the ship would be static. Surrounding the ship though would be extreme space-time distortions with bizarre time-flows. As for wormhole travel the time distortion would depend on the relative motions between the mouths of the 'hole. A traversible wormhole has no fatal space-time distortions, but will there be any such out there in the Galaxy. There'll be natural ones, but they might not be suitable for humans. The only way to know would be to send probes in, and big time flow differences could mean a long wait for a returning probe. Adam Crowl From VM Wed Sep 23 10:00:39 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["584" "Wed" "23" "September" "1998" "16:31:01" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "Shealiak@XS4ALL.nl" nil "16" "starship-design: Bussard drive" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 584 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA12751 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.xs4all.nl (smtp3.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.53]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA12716 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:31:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from - (dc2-modem1223.dial.xs4all.nl [194.109.132.199]) by smtp3.xs4all.nl (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA09873 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:31:13 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980923163101.006c2ce4@pop.xs4all.nl> X-Sender: shealiak@pop.xs4all.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) In-Reply-To: <36088772.3ACF@sunherald.infi.net> References: <000401bde673$40c19d60$e15931cc@lparker> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Timothy van der Linden From: Timothy van der Linden Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Bussard drive Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:31:01 +0100 Hi Kyle, You quoted: >The speed of the Bussard jet soon reaches an upper >limit--about 10 percent of light speed--where thrust is equal to wind >resistance and the ship can accelerate no further." This thus means that the exhaust velocity of a Bussard drive is also about 0.1c (assuming minimal energy losses). If somehow the exhaust velocity could be increased, then so would the maximum velocity. Kyle, does the text from which you quoted also say something about maximum exhaust velocity? Ie. Why can't the Bussard design be upgraded to say exhaust velocities of 0.5c? Timothy From VM Wed Sep 23 10:57:39 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1892" "Wed" "23" "September" "1998" "12:48:01" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "34" "RE: starship-design: Bussard drive" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1892 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA13891 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:49:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA13878 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p263.gnt.com [204.49.91.23]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id MAA14262; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:49:31 -0500 Message-ID: <001501bde71a$4f7251e0$e15931cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980923163101.006c2ce4@pop.xs4all.nl> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Timothy van der Linden" Cc: "Starship Design" Subject: RE: starship-design: Bussard drive Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:48:01 -0500 Timothy et. al., There seems to be two separate issues here, one of which may be valid and one is not. First, Kyle is correct that when drag equals thrust, acceleration will stop. Note that I said acceleration, you will still have to maintain thrust in order to maintain velocity or drag will slow you down. Of, course this actually applies to the scoop area and assumes that scoop area is a constant, so I suppose you could "fold" the scoop and reduce drag. For that matter, you could reduce the scoop area constantly to maintain a constant acceleration irregardless of drag...remember, drag is a function of area and so is scoop efficiency. If the scoop area decreases for a given amount of power, then its efficiency will increase as a function of field density while drag is decreasing at a proportional rate. The trick is to balance scoop area against the interstellar hydrogen density to maintain a more or less constant thrust. If engine ISP is also increased then the area of the scoop can be increased accordingly. There will always be some "magic point" where scoop area, hydrogen density, and engine ISP will maximize thrust WITHOUT an upper limit on velocity. Second, the upper limit on velocity IS NOT the exhaust velocity of the engine, go back to your freshman physics book if you don't believe me, and I don't care who you've been reading. With enough reaction mass, you can get to light speed by THROWING tennis balls off the back of the Santa Maria! The only real problems (if one forgets the low local density) here are scoop design and efficiency, engine efficiency (ISP) and design lifetime. An antimatter drive fed by onboard hydrogen initially and later by interstellar hydrogen could approach ANY fraction of the speed of light and do it fairly quickly. By sacrificing a bit of thrust, it can even replenish its onboard fuel enroute for the deceleration run. Lee From VM Wed Sep 23 11:01:53 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3029" "Wed" "23" "September" "1998" "10:55:21" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "62" "Re: FW: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur point?" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 3029 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA15955 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:55:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (root@wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA15927 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:55:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [204.214.99.68]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA00940 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:55:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA10116; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:55:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <13833.13833.659285.656803@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <3608E0E2.AA14C3C3@ozemail.com.au> References: <199809230926.KAA06837@ns0.sky.co.uk> <3608E0E2.AA14C3C3@ozemail.com.au> X-Mailer: VM 6.62 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: FW: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur point? Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Since we have several new subscribers, and many new subscribers immediately start wondering why our design project excludes FTL, let me just make a few introductory remarks: We exclude FTL drives from consideration (for now) for the same reason we exclude a lot of other things like "vacuum energy" -- they're simply too speculative. The main point of this list is to consider interstellar travel as an engineering problem, and to think about sound engineering designs. That means that we limit ourselves to things that are less speculative and known to be physically possible. Relativity, hydrogen fusion and antimatter, as examples, are observable and experimentally verifiable. Until someone demonstrates FTL travel _of a massive particle_ or successfully extracts "vacuum energy" in experimentally verifiable ways, these things won't be considered because it's impossible to make an engineering design without a real understanding of such effects. AJ Crowl writes: > Seems FTL is more likely than inertialess drives. At least we > know of physical processes that have involved FTL in the past > [cosmic expansion], whereas there's nothing known that can > alter inertia. Haisch and Puthoff's electromagnetic theory of > inertia is a start, but there's no guarantee that inertia can > be changed. In general relativistic terms, superluminal expansion of spacetime isn't at all the same as FTL travel of mass. Even during that inflationary phase there was no mass traveling faster than light through spacetime. And just what other FTL processes do you think exist? Theorists have yet to come up with anything tenable for allowing mass to travel FTL. Things like quantum connectedness don't allow transfer of mass or even information. Attempts to theoretically describe FTL effects using general relativity have so far always run into physical impossibilities like negative energy densities. > > Hence my belief that FTL travel is > > necessary for serious and long-distance space exploration. > > > > Does anyone know what is (theoretically) meant to happen re. time dilation > > when you travel FTL? (eg. travelling back in time?) > > Time reversal is supposed to occur, though I could never work > out why. "Events preceding their effects" - one result of > space-like motion [FTL], though I still don't see how. A > distant observer might see the events as occuring out of > order, but how does that then violate causality? Locally > nothing odd has occurred. No one has ever gone FTL so who can > say? Actually, it's not a problem with distant observers; if you can go FTL you can trivially travel into your own past. Just do an FTL jump, accelerate sufficiently, and then do another FTL jump back to the location you started from. The amount of acceleration needed to do this depends on how much faster than light you went, how far your jump was, and how far back you want to travel into your own past. Unfortunately it's difficult to include a spacetime diagram of this effect here. From VM Wed Sep 23 11:41:52 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["307" "Wed" "23" "September" "1998" "13:33:11" "-0700" "Kyle R. Mcallister" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" "<36095B07.1EFF@sunherald.infi.net>" "8" "Re: FW: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur poi nt?" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 307 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA08051 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA08033 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:36:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OEMComputer (pm6-71.gpt.infi.net [207.0.195.71]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA21114 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 14:36:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <36095B07.1EFF@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199809230843.JAA04936@ns0.sky.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: FW: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur poi nt? Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 13:33:11 -0700 Walker, Chris wrote: > I agree with both statements. However, I am curious as to your reason(s) > *why* you believe FTL travel is possible. I have many reasons. I will gladly discuss them off list with you. However, as Steve points out, this list is not a place for discussing speculative subjects. From VM Wed Sep 23 11:43:42 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["548" "Wed" "23" "September" "1998" "13:35:03" "-0700" "Kyle R. Mcallister" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "15" "Re: FW: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur poi nt?" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 548 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA09673 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA09633 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OEMComputer (pm6-71.gpt.infi.net [207.0.195.71]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA14273 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 14:37:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <36095B77.287D@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: FW: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur poi nt? Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 13:35:03 -0700 Bjorn Nilsson wrote: > Well I would also be VERY interested in WHY you think FTL is posible... I will send you an email explaining this. > > However I do not fully agree that those two condintions are that > neccesary, as long as you can fulfill the 1st one (reactionless drives) > then you can probably build a reasonably unexpensive (in global terms) > starship to get to the nearby stars in a decade or so. Yes, you can get there with a reactionless drive..but to do so efficiently and quickly, FTL is quite attractive. Kyle R. Mcallister From VM Wed Sep 23 11:56:41 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1064" "Wed" "23" "September" "1998" "11:50:53" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu" nil "25" "Re: FW: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur point?" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1064 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16793 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16774; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:50:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <13833.17165.585431.118232@darkwing.uoregon.edu> In-Reply-To: <36095B07.1EFF@sunherald.infi.net> References: <199809230843.JAA04936@ns0.sky.co.uk> <36095B07.1EFF@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.59 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: FW: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur point? Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:50:53 -0700 (PDT) Kyle R. Mcallister writes: > Walker, Chris wrote: > > > I agree with both statements. However, I am curious as to your reason(s) > > *why* you believe FTL travel is possible. > > I have many reasons. I will gladly discuss them off list with you. > However, as Steve points out, this list is not a place for discussing > speculative subjects. I'm not sure I would put it in quite those terms. If someone comes up with solid, verified results of something like FTL propulsion of mass I'm sure we'd be the first to welcome the information. Some discussion of speculative topics here is unavoidable; as has been pointed out before, even the sorts of things we're more inclined to consider still involve a fair amount of speculation (i.e. antimatter exists, but how would we make enough to fuel a starship?). I simply want to emphasize, for those people new to the list, that this list is intended for the discussion of practical, achievable methods for interstellar travel, and therefore is more limited in speculation than other forums might be. From VM Wed Sep 23 13:20:56 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3062" "Wed" "23" "September" "1998" "13:52:17" "-0700" "Kyle R. Mcallister" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "60" "starship-design: FTL travel" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 3062 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA19701 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA19634 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OEMComputer (pm6-71.gpt.infi.net [207.0.195.71]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA05375 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 14:55:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <36095F81.5132@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199809230926.KAA06837@ns0.sky.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: FTL travel Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 13:52:17 -0700 Walker, Chris wrote: > > Bjorn, > > I meant that I agreed that FTL travel was *necessary* for attempting serious > interstellar exploration, rather than I thought FTL travel was *possible*. > I'm still learning much about the various theories regarding this subject, > so do not feel qualified to comment on whether or not it is possible - > that's why I was curious as to Kyle's beliefs in FTL flight. A theory cannot tell you if something is or is not possible. Many of the scientists who hold power today fail to recongnize this. Experiments can give you proof, but not theory. I am not saying theory is bad, however. It is necessary to logically organize experimental results and make predictions. > > The planet-hopping method may be a more realistic/achievable goal in the > shorter term (next century), given that without a major breakthrough in > propulsion technology, FTL flight may not be achieved for some considerable > time. It seems to me that production of a working reactionless drive is more > within our immediate reach than breaking the light barrier. No one can say. It may happen tomorrow, or it may take hundreds of years. > Does anyone know what is (theoretically) meant to happen re. time dilation > when you travel FTL? (eg. travelling back in time?) According to special relativity, when an object travels FTL, it can create what is known as a causality violation. What this is is when some observer disagrees as to whether the FTL object left point A and went to point B, or went from point B to point A. In other words, to this observer, the ship's arrival at its destination occurred before it left its origin. You can set up a situation with round trip FTL travel that can allow a ship to return to its origin before it leaves (time travel). (If you want to learn more about special relativity, read "Spacetime Physics" by Taylor and Wheeler.) What really happens? No one knows. If FTL is possible, then it certainly will not involve time travel...there are many strong arguments against time travel. But it is wrong, and quite arrogant for some scientists to preclude FTL because time travel is impossible. Notice, I am not saying time travel is impossible. It may or may not be. The same with FTL. FTL and time dilation: First, calculate gamma. Gamma is equal to 1/((1-v^2)^.5) so gamma for an object travelling .6c relative to another observer is 1.25. This means that the moving object's time goes 1.25 times slower than the stationary object. For an object going 3c, try it on a scientific calculator. gamma=1/((1-3^2)^.5) gamma= approx (0,-.35355) An imaginary number. This is where things really get complicated. So, does this mean that FTL is impossible, or that relativity can't correctly predict what happens for FTL? That is a very good question, and if you can figure it out, you will likely be in the textbooks. It is fun to theorize about FTL, but this really isn't the place. Best regards, Kyle R. Mcallister Note, if you get this a few times, sorry. My mail program is trying to send it automatically. From VM Wed Sep 23 13:20:56 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1482" "Wed" "23" "September" "1998" "14:19:50" "-0700" "Kyle R. Mcallister" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "35" "Re: FW: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur point?" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1482 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA04284 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:22:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA04228 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OEMComputer (pm6-71.gpt.infi.net [207.0.195.71]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA01691 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:22:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <360965F6.15E3@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199809230843.JAA04936@ns0.sky.co.uk> <36095B07.1EFF@sunherald.infi.net> <13833.17165.585431.118232@darkwing.uoregon.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: FW: starship-design: Interstellar travel-using vacuum..ur point? Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 14:19:50 -0700 Steve VanDevender wrote: > I'm not sure I would put it in quite those terms. If someone > comes up with solid, verified results of something like FTL > propulsion of mass I'm sure we'd be the first to welcome the > information. But even if someone proves FTL motion of mass, it would take awhile to develop the necessary system. Accelerating matter to FTL might not directly lead to a 'warp drive'. I think that even if FTL is discovered tommorow, it will be quite some time before we can seriously start designing FTL starships. It would be interesting to discuss the results though, and I'd be interested even if they figured out how to send information FTL. Applying real FTL to a starship engine might take time though. > > Some discussion of speculative topics here is unavoidable; as has > been pointed out before, even the sorts of things we're more > inclined to consider still involve a fair amount of speculation > (i.e. antimatter exists, but how would we make enough to fuel a > starship?). By speculative, I meant things that have not yet been toatlly all out demonstrated. Antimatter is real (albeit very expensive), but FTL motion of matter...we haven't done that yet. > > I simply want to emphasize, for those people new to the list, > that this list is intended for the discussion of practical, > achievable methods for interstellar travel, and therefore is more > limited in speculation than other forums might be. Agreed. Best regards, Kyle R. Mcallister From VM Wed Sep 23 15:13:58 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["883" "Wed" "23" "September" "1998" "22:57:01" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "Shealiak@XS4ALL.nl" nil "21" "RE: starship-design: Bussard drive" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 883 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA00198 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.xs4all.nl (smtp1.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.51]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA00151 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from - (dc2-modem647.dial.xs4all.nl [194.109.130.135]) by smtp1.xs4all.nl (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA04148 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 00:03:04 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980923225701.0069fcf8@pop.xs4all.nl> X-Sender: shealiak@pop.xs4all.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) In-Reply-To: <001501bde71a$4f7251e0$e15931cc@lparker> References: <3.0.1.32.19980923163101.006c2ce4@pop.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Timothy van der Linden From: Timothy van der Linden Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: starship-design: Bussard drive Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 22:57:01 +0100 Lee, You may want to reconsider the following: >Second, the upper limit on velocity IS NOT the exhaust velocity of the >engine, go back to your freshman physics book if you don't believe me, and I >don't care who you've been reading. With enough reaction mass, you can get >to light speed by THROWING tennis balls off the back of the Santa Maria! Unfortunately that reaction mass has to be accelerated by the ship to transfer momentum. The trouble is that the reaction mass is already having a large velocity (0.1c) relative to the ship, because it is scooped. So to add velocity (accelerate) to the particles, the exhaust velocity has to be larger than 0.1c. On the Santa Maria one doesn't scoop particles, but instead the particles are at assumed to be stored on the ship. This makes it easy to accelerate them. So the comparison with the Santa Maria is totally off. Timothy From VM Thu Sep 24 10:07:07 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1356" "Thu" "24" "September" "1998" "09:56:35" "+0200" "Bjorn Nilsson" "f96bni@student.tdb.uu.se" nil "34" "Re: starship-design: FTL travel" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1356 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA24251 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 00:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sabik.tdb.uu.se (pHQsUhXUbo7ngGORZz2kLUjS1YfQhK+E@sabik.tdb.uu.se [130.238.138.70]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA24242 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 00:56:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (f96bni@localhost) by sabik.tdb.uu.se (8.8.8/8.8.8/STUD_1.1) with SMTP id JAA26109 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:56:35 +0200 (MET DST) X-Sender: f96bni@sabik.tdb.uu.se In-Reply-To: <36095F81.5132@sunherald.infi.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Bjorn Nilsson From: Bjorn Nilsson Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: FTL travel Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:56:35 +0200 (MET DST) On Wed, 23 Sep 1998, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > Walker, Chris wrote: > > > > Bjorn, > > > > I meant that I agreed that FTL travel was *necessary* for attempting serious > > interstellar exploration, rather than I thought FTL travel was *possible*. > > I'm still learning much about the various theories regarding this subject, > > so do not feel qualified to comment on whether or not it is possible - > > that's why I was curious as to Kyle's beliefs in FTL flight. > > A theory cannot tell you if something is or is not possible. Many of the > scientists who hold power today fail to recongnize this. Experiments can > give you proof, but not theory. I am not saying theory is bad, however. > It is necessary to logically organize experimental results and make > predictions. Well, that is VERY much a question of philosophy... I personnaly think that it is well within the capacity of the human mind to give proof from theory alone, as long as the base for the theory is sound and your reasoning is stringent enough such a proof is at LEAST as real to me as any experimental measurment. It all depends on your view of what constitutes the (scientific) thruth! To you it is limeted to what can be OBSERVED, to me it is limeted to what can be EXPLAINED and to others it might be a combination of the two! Sorry for straying so far OT /Bjorn From VM Thu Sep 24 10:07:07 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2116" "Thu" "24" "September" "1998" "06:39:55" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "45" "RE: starship-design: Bussard drive" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2116 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA09943 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 04:42:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA09938 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 04:42:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p200.gnt.com [204.49.89.200]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id GAA08596; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 06:42:25 -0500 Message-ID: <001601bde7b0$0deae480$e15931cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980923225701.0069fcf8@pop.xs4all.nl> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Timothy van der Linden" Cc: "Starship Design" Subject: RE: starship-design: Bussard drive Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 06:39:55 -0500 Timothy, > > You may want to reconsider the following: > In the particular instance of ramjets, you are correct that you have to be able to accelerate the reaction mass to greater than its original velocity relative to the ship. In addition, you must also do so without slowing the reaction mass down on its way through, that problem has been realized for quite some time. But I was speaking of reaction mass propulsion in general. After looking back at the original statement, I see it was applied during a conversation about ramjets and was probably meant to apply to them specifically. But the way it was worded made it appear to apply to reaction mass thrust in general...a patently false idea. The ramjet idea does have several difficulties to over come if it is to work however: 1) A solid scoop will never work. Even if a thousand or ten thousand meter scoop could be designed to withstand up to one tenth of a g of acceleration, as the velocity increased, the mass of the matter impacting it would go up proportionately. It would soon grow beyond any reasonable engineering. 2) If the scoop is immaterial, i.e. a field of some sort, then the same argument still applies although a little differently. As speed increases, the field strength must be increased without increasing the field area in order to prevent more and more of the matter from slipping through before it can be deflected far enough to bring it to the ship. 3) As you point out, all of this deflection must be done without generating so much drag from slowing down the fuel that we can't get enough thrust out of burning the fuel. What I would suggest, is that IF we can generate a field sufficiently strong to catch ionized hydrogen, then we can probably generate one strong enough to function as a sort of inside out accelerator and simply magnetically (or whatever) propel the hydrogen backward without even bothering to burn it. The second possibility is that the field itself may be able to accelerate the matter as it is deflected inward, before it is burned thereby gaining additional thrust rather than drag. Lee From VM Thu Sep 24 15:29:20 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3458" "Thu" "24" "September" "1998" "22:56:45" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "Shealiak@XS4ALL.nl" nil "72" "RE: starship-design: Bussard drive" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 3458 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26606 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 15:18:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.xs4all.nl (smtp1.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.51]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA26579 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 15:18:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from - (dc2-modem644.dial.xs4all.nl [194.109.130.132]) by smtp1.xs4all.nl (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA13714 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 00:18:27 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980924225645.0068a474@pop.xs4all.nl> X-Sender: shealiak@pop.xs4all.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) In-Reply-To: <001601bde7b0$0deae480$e15931cc@lparker> References: <3.0.1.32.19980923225701.0069fcf8@pop.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Timothy van der Linden From: Timothy van der Linden Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: starship-design: Bussard drive Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 22:56:45 +0100 Hello Lee, >In the particular instance of ramjets, you are correct that you have to be >able to accelerate the reaction mass to greater than its original velocity >relative to the ship. In addition, you must also do so without slowing the >reaction mass down on its way through, that problem has been realized for >quite some time. But I was speaking of reaction mass propulsion in general. You may stop the particles, but you shouldn't loose too much energy in doing so, because you have to speed up the particles again. This scenario is usually to difficult to realize, hence it is best to not slow down the particles. >After looking back at the original statement, I see it was applied during a >conversation about ramjets and was probably meant to apply to them >specifically. Yes, applied to scooping only. There is something I didn't think of before: Some of the particles that the scoop tries to pick up will never reach the intake of the engine, because the scoop field was just not strong enough (The magnetic scoop field does not have a sharp edge, hence there will be particles that encounter a weak field and they will be moved towards the intake, but not quite.). These particles thus generate drag without contributing as reaction mass or fuel. The larger the velocity of the ship, the more particles will slip through the scoopfield and thus the more drag will be created. So the sharper the edge (the greater the magnetic fieldstrength difference) the better the performance of the scoop. This thus also means that my initial assumption "final velocity equals exhaust velocity" isn't valid per se, but depends on the efficiency of the field. >The ramjet idea does have several difficulties to over come if it is to work >however: > >1) A solid scoop will never work. Even if a thousand or ten thousand meter >scoop could be designed to withstand up to one tenth of a g of acceleration, >as the velocity increased, the mass of the matter impacting it would go up >proportionately. It would soon grow beyond any reasonable engineering. > >2) If the scoop is immaterial, i.e. a field of some sort, then the same >argument still applies although a little differently. As speed increases, >the field strength must be increased without increasing the field area in >order to prevent more and more of the matter from slipping through before it >can be deflected far enough to bring it to the ship. This is what led me to the thought mentioned by me above. (I'm not sure you [Lee] realized what I wrote above.) >3) As you point out, all of this deflection must be done without generating >so much drag from slowing down the fuel that we can't get enough thrust out >of burning the fuel. > >What I would suggest, is that IF we can generate a field sufficiently strong >to catch ionized hydrogen, then we can probably generate one strong enough >to function as a sort of inside out accelerator and simply magnetically (or >whatever) propel the hydrogen backward without even bothering to burn it. We have to burn it partially, since we need to add kinetic energy. That is unless we have another source of energy on the ship of course (this source should not be underestimated!). >The second possibility is that the field itself may be able to accelerate >the matter as it is deflected inward, before it is burned thereby gaining >additional thrust rather than drag. Same argument, acceleration in this case means adding energy. Timothy From VM Thu Sep 24 16:06:53 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3704" "Thu" "24" "September" "1998" "15:58:23" "-0700" "N. Lindberg" "nlindber@u.washington.edu" nil "75" "RE: starship-design: Bussard drive" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 3704 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17889 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 15:58:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (root@jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17869 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 15:58:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dante24.u.washington.edu (nlindber@dante24.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.74]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id PAA37300 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 15:58:24 -0700 Received: from localhost (nlindber@localhost) by dante24.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id PAA89432 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 15:58:23 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980924225645.0068a474@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "N. Lindberg" From: "N. Lindberg" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship design Subject: RE: starship-design: Bussard drive Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 15:58:23 -0700 (PDT) Timothy, Lee, I like the point about the "sharpness" of the field affecting efficiency. However, I question the basic premise of a non-burning scoop. In all of the discussions on the list about propulsion (about 90%, I'd say) the final question is always the weight/energy ratio of the fuel. Even if your reaction mass _is_ gathered, if you carry 5000 times your dry weight in fuel, you havent really gained much since the acceleration of the ship is only dependent on how much wattage is put our the back. Scooping then simply becomes a way to add extra weight and complexity to the ship. In order for scooping to be a good idea, the interstellar hydrogen should be burned enough to at least make up for the added weight and drag of the scoop, and then some. How feasible this is engineering-wise I can't say. Best Regards, Nels Lindberg On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, Timothy van der Linden wrote: > Hello Lee, > > There is something I didn't think of before: Some of the particles that the > scoop tries to pick up will never reach the intake of the engine, because > the scoop field was just not strong enough (The magnetic scoop field does > not have a sharp edge, hence there will be particles that encounter a weak > field and they will be moved towards the intake, but not quite.). These > particles thus generate drag without contributing as reaction mass or fuel. > The larger the velocity of the ship, the more particles will slip through > the scoopfield and thus the more drag will be created. > > So the sharper the edge (the greater the magnetic fieldstrength difference) > the better the performance of the scoop. > > This thus also means that my initial assumption "final velocity equals > exhaust velocity" isn't valid per se, but depends on the efficiency of the > field. > > >The ramjet idea does have several difficulties to over come if it is to work > >however: > > > >1) A solid scoop will never work. Even if a thousand or ten thousand meter > >scoop could be designed to withstand up to one tenth of a g of acceleration, > >as the velocity increased, the mass of the matter impacting it would go up > >proportionately. It would soon grow beyond any reasonable engineering. > > > >2) If the scoop is immaterial, i.e. a field of some sort, then the same > >argument still applies although a little differently. As speed increases, > >the field strength must be increased without increasing the field area in > >order to prevent more and more of the matter from slipping through before it > >can be deflected far enough to bring it to the ship. > > This is what led me to the thought mentioned by me above. (I'm not sure you > [Lee] realized what I wrote above.) > > >3) As you point out, all of this deflection must be done without generating > >so much drag from slowing down the fuel that we can't get enough thrust out > >of burning the fuel. > > > >What I would suggest, is that IF we can generate a field sufficiently strong > >to catch ionized hydrogen, then we can probably generate one strong enough > >to function as a sort of inside out accelerator and simply magnetically (or > >whatever) propel the hydrogen backward without even bothering to burn it. > > We have to burn it partially, since we need to add kinetic energy. That is > unless we have another source of energy on the ship of course (this source > should not be underestimated!). > > >The second possibility is that the field itself may be able to accelerate > >the matter as it is deflected inward, before it is burned thereby gaining > >additional thrust rather than drag. > > Same argument, acceleration in this case means adding energy. > > Timothy From VM Fri Sep 25 09:59:01 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4265" "Thu" "24" "September" "1998" "20:10:11" "-0500" "Kevin Houston" "kevin@urly-bird.com" nil "100" "starship-design: scoops and sails and something to push against." "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 4265 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA13047 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 18:11:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web12.ntx.net (root@web12.ntx.net [209.1.144.158]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA13034 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 18:11:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from urly-bird.com (wf-6-16.wavefront.net [206.146.208.192]) by web12.ntx.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA05337; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 18:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <360AED73.CDC56FC8@urly-bird.com> Organization: http://www.urly-bird.com/houston4thehouse/ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <001601bde7b0$0deae480$e15931cc@lparker> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Kevin Houston From: Kevin Houston Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Starship Design CC: "L. Parker" , Timothy van der Linden Subject: starship-design: scoops and sails and something to push against. Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 20:10:11 -0500 Lee, You have given me a great idea (experienced list members will be ducking for cover I assume ;) let's rethink the idea of "engine", "scoop", and "sail" scoop is a means of interacting with the interstellar medium. engine is a means of accelerating the medium thereby moving us. sail in this sense is a means of gathering energy. a _trailing_ mesh of some bits of silicon to turn UV radiation into electrical energy. Please note, this is a very rough draft, there may be things I have not thought out, I am thinking on the fly here. What if a beaming system from earth simply created a "charge tunnel" in the interstellar Hydrogen? Then a ship could gather electrical energy from a trailing sail, and use this energy to push against the charged Hydrogen. perhaps using an oscilating electrical field. The individual hydrogen atoms, would not need to be drawn toward the ship, fused, and expelled, but could be used in situ. As the ship passed, each atom would gain a small accel towards earth, I think this would totally eliminate the need for focusing the beam, earth would "paint" space a fraction on an arc degree (limited by the wavelength of radiation (ultraviolet would work best here)) around the target star, and the ship could maneuver within that volume. The entire engine would be outside the ship! the ship could be any size, but saucer shaped (to maximize cross sectional area might be good) or cylindrical (to maximize protection from speed induced radiation) One main advantage is that you could establish this "charge tunnel" well ahead of actual launch. On the way back, you could wait to see the beam from earth before heading back, and the hydrogen atoms that were accelerated towards earth on the outbound trip would be accelerated towards Tau Ceti on the in bound trip. We have often wished for something to push against. anyone care to shoot some holes in this? Kevin Hosuton. L. Parker wrote: > > Timothy, > > > > > You may want to reconsider the following: > > > > > In the particular instance of ramjets, you are correct that you have to be > able to accelerate the reaction mass to greater than its original velocity > relative to the ship. In addition, you must also do so without slowing the > reaction mass down on its way through, that problem has been realized for > quite some time. But I was speaking of reaction mass propulsion in general. > > After looking back at the original statement, I see it was applied during a > conversation about ramjets and was probably meant to apply to them > specifically. But the way it was worded made it appear to apply to reaction > mass thrust in general...a patently false idea. > > The ramjet idea does have several difficulties to over come if it is to work > however: > > 1) A solid scoop will never work. Even if a thousand or ten thousand meter > scoop could be designed to withstand up to one tenth of a g of acceleration, > as the velocity increased, the mass of the matter impacting it would go up > proportionately. It would soon grow beyond any reasonable engineering. > > 2) If the scoop is immaterial, i.e. a field of some sort, then the same > argument still applies although a little differently. As speed increases, > the field strength must be increased without increasing the field area in > order to prevent more and more of the matter from slipping through before it > can be deflected far enough to bring it to the ship. > > 3) As you point out, all of this deflection must be done without generating > so much drag from slowing down the fuel that we can't get enough thrust out > of burning the fuel. > > What I would suggest, is that IF we can generate a field sufficiently strong > to catch ionized hydrogen, then we can probably generate one strong enough > to function as a sort of inside out accelerator and simply magnetically (or > whatever) propel the hydrogen backward without even bothering to burn it. > The second possibility is that the field itself may be able to accelerate > the matter as it is deflected inward, before it is burned thereby gaining > additional thrust rather than drag. > > Lee -- Kevin Houston http://www.lpmn.org/candidates/ Libertarian candidate for Congress - District 5 From VM Fri Sep 25 09:59:01 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["637" "Thu" "24" "September" "1998" "20:13:58" "-0500" "Kevin Houston" "kevin@urly-bird.com" nil "18" "starship-design: Re: suitable punishments in hell." "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 637 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14360 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 18:15:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web12.ntx.net (root@web12.ntx.net [209.1.144.158]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14315 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 18:15:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from urly-bird.com (wf-6-16.wavefront.net [206.146.208.192]) by web12.ntx.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA05721 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 18:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <360AEE56.F3A8CBEB@urly-bird.com> Organization: http://www.urly-bird.com/houston4thehouse/ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <001501bde71a$4f7251e0$e15931cc@lparker> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Kevin Houston From: Kevin Houston Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Starship Design Subject: starship-design: Re: suitable punishments in hell. Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 20:13:58 -0500 Lee, I think this would be a suitable sentence in hell, you must spend eternity throwing tennis balls out the back of a full-sized replica of the santa maria, until you reach .9999 C. Sort of like Sisyphus. ;) L. Parker wrote: > > Second, the upper limit on velocity IS NOT the exhaust velocity of the > engine, go back to your freshman physics book if you don't believe me, and I > don't care who you've been reading. With enough reaction mass, you can get > to light speed by THROWING tennis balls off the back of the Santa Maria! -- Kevin Houston http://www.lpmn.org/candidates/ Libertarian candidate for Congress - District 5 From VM Fri Sep 25 09:59:01 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["971" "Thu" "24" "September" "1998" "21:22:09" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "27" "RE: starship-design: scoops and sails and something to push against." "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 971 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02865 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 19:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02858 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 19:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p275.gnt.com [204.49.91.35]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id VAA25792; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 21:25:37 -0500 Message-ID: <001701bde82b$4cd7f0e0$e15931cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 In-Reply-To: <360AED73.CDC56FC8@urly-bird.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Kevin Houston" Cc: "Starship Design" Subject: RE: starship-design: scoops and sails and something to push against. Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 21:22:09 -0500 Kevin, This is pretty much what Timothy and I were discussing. To clear up a few points for the rest of the list... In order for an electromagnetic scoop to work, the particles that it "scoops" must be charged, or ionized, you cannot scoop a neutral particle. The most common method proposed for creating charged particles is to beam a laser "fan" ahead of the ship. The photons impacting the interstellar hydrogen will create a hydrogen ion with a negative charge which can then be attracted to a positively charged scoop field. In this much at least your idea is good. It removes the mass of the lasers from the ship and you could actually use an uncollimated solar mirror which is much simpler. However, the density of the scoop field and the energy required to generate it are still enormous. On board power generation would probably have to be several times larger than a small city's supply. Timothy, How do you generate a field with a sharp boundary? Lee From VM Fri Sep 25 09:59:01 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5601" "Thu" "24" "September" "1998" "23:21:31" "-0500" "Kevin Houston" "kevin@urly-bird.com" nil "125" "Re: starship-design: scoops and sails and something to push against." "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 5601 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA01044 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 21:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web12.ntx.net (root@web12.ntx.net [209.1.144.158]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA01033 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 21:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from urly-bird.com (wf-6-16.wavefront.net [206.146.208.192]) by web12.ntx.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA26349 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 21:23:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <360B1A4B.3B903632@urly-bird.com> Organization: http://www.urly-bird.com/houston4thehouse/ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <001701bde82b$4cd7f0e0$e15931cc@lparker> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Kevin Houston From: Kevin Houston Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Starship Design Subject: Re: starship-design: scoops and sails and something to push against. Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 23:21:31 -0500 Lee, It seemed to me that you were talking about gathering the hydrogen in toward the ship, then expelling it again. ( fig. 1.) (Note missed hydrogen) H H H H H H H \ \ H | | | / / \ | | | H | | / \ \ \ | / H / / H H \ H | | | | | H / \ \ |H | | / / \ | \ | / | / H H H \ \ | | | / / \ || | || / H H \ V | V / H H \ \ | / / H H H \ \|/ / \ | / H \|/ ||| [S] [H] [I] [P] ||| HHH HHH ||| VVV Whereas I am proposing this: (fig 2) H H H | | H | H H V V | V | | H V H V V | H | H H V H | V | H | | V H V | V V | V V - - - - - - - - - - - - negative charges -----------[ship]----------- + + + + + + + + + + + + positive charges H H H | | H | H H V V | V | | H V H V V | H | H H V H | V | H | | V H V | V v | v V Where the dashed line is some sort of combination field conductor, and energy collector. I see this ship as a large saucer, with living quarters toward the middle, and a very thin mesh of wires, and energy collectors spread out along the periphery. Rotation would keep the whole thing stable, and spread out. the above view would be from the side. Think of it as a giant version of starwisp, but instead of reflecting the energy, the mesh collects the energy, turns it into electricity, which supports an electric field of several megawatts potential. I suppose we'll need two meshes, one for the positive charge, and one for the negative. They only need to be separated enough to prevent bridging. I imagine the field must be pulsed to get any use out of it, but with a "Sail" a few hundred kilometers across, we should find enough Hydrogen to push against. Not much, granted, but with a big enough field, we should be able to make the hydrogen ions move fast enough so as to push us in the the opposite direction. I think perhaps this would work better at higher speeds, where the apparent density will increase. L. Parker wrote: > > Kevin, > > This is pretty much what Timothy and I were discussing. To clear up a few > points for the rest of the list... > > In order for an electromagnetic scoop to work, the particles that it > "scoops" must be charged, or ionized, you cannot scoop a neutral particle. > > The most common method proposed for creating charged particles is to beam a > laser "fan" ahead of the ship. The photons impacting the interstellar > hydrogen will create a hydrogen ion with a negative charge which can then be > attracted to a positively charged scoop field. Umm... Negative? By stripping away an electron, wouldn't it be positive? If I'm wrong, then reverse the charges on the above drawing. > > In this much at least your idea is good. It removes the mass of the lasers > from the ship and you could actually use an uncollimated solar mirror which > is much simpler. mirror, really? That would be better, but would it be strong enough at light years distance? > > However, the density of the scoop field and the energy required to generate > it are still enormous. On board power generation would probably have to be > several times larger than a small city's supply. not if you are swimming in a sea of energy capable of ionizing hydrogen ;) > > Timothy, > > How do you generate a field with a sharp boundary? > > Lee -- Kevin Houston http://www.lpmn.org/candidates/ Libertarian candidate for Congress - District 5 From VM Fri Sep 25 09:59:02 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2167" "Fri" "25" "September" "1998" "08:41:56" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "82" "RE: starship-design: scoops and sails and something to push against." "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2167 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA26255 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 06:46:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA26243 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 06:46:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p272.gnt.com [204.49.91.32]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id IAA11228; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 08:46:28 -0500 Message-ID: <001801bde88a$44e178c0$e15931cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 In-Reply-To: <360B1A4B.3B903632@urly-bird.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Kevin Houston" Cc: "Starship Design" Subject: RE: starship-design: scoops and sails and something to push against. Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 08:41:56 -0500 Kevin, This diagram would be the ramjet or hybrid ramjet > > It seemed to me that you were talking about gathering the hydrogen in > toward the ship, then expelling it again. ( fig. 1.) (Note missed > hydrogen) > > > > H H H H H H H > \ \ H | | | / / > \ | | | H | | / > \ \ \ | / H / / H > H \ H | | | | | H / > \ \ |H | | / / > \ | \ | / | / H H > H \ \ | | | / / > \ || | || / > H H \ V | V / H H > \ \ | / / H > H H \ \|/ / > \ | / H > \|/ > ||| > [S] > [H] > [I] > [P] > ||| > HHH > HHH > ||| > VVV > > This one is the external accelerator > Whereas I am proposing this: (fig 2) > > > H H H > | | H | H H > V V | V | | > H V H V V > | H | H > H V H | V | H > | | V H V | > V V | V > V > - - - - - - - - - - - - negative charges > -----------[ship]----------- > + + + + + + + + + + + + positive charges > H H H > | | H | H H > V V | V | | > H V H V V > | H | H > H V H | V | H > | | V H V | > V v | v > V > The problem is how to generate two monopolar fields? If you simply use two grids, your net thrust will be zero. > > Umm... Negative? By stripping away an electron, wouldn't it be > positive? If I'm wrong, then reverse the charges on the above drawing. > I'm not sure, but I think you would end up with both positive and negative ions in roughly equal amounts. > not if you are swimming in a sea of energy capable of ionizing hydrogen Umm. there is not really that much usable energy there for the taking. Lee From VM Mon Sep 28 09:42:25 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1753" "Sun" "27" "September" "1998" "17:41:06" "+0100" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "48" "starship-design: Travel close to the speed of light as you fly a Star Ship to a distant Star" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1753 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA29256 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 09:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.8]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA29250 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 09:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id RAA11167; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 17:41:06 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199809271641.RAA11167@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: starship-design: Travel close to the speed of light as you fly a Star Ship to a distant Star Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 17:41:06 +0100 (MET) I received this letter some time ago, when I was on my holidays. I have not yet checked the recommended site - maybe it contains something interesting.. >From the letter it seems pretty well-known thing already. -- Zenon Kulpa ----- Begin Included Message ----- >From holmsoft@dundee.net Wed Sep 16 04:58:55 1998 From: "Larry Holm" To: Cc: Subject: Travel close to the speed of light as you fly a Star Ship to a distant Star Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:08:03 -0400 Content-Length: 1164 Travel close to the speed of light as you fly a Star Ship to a distant planet into orbit around a distant star. I've written a program to make some calculations. I'm not sure if I'm crazy or just wrong, but if I'm right, it might be something to think about and share with the world. Please check it out at http://www.dundee.net/holmsoft/StarTrip.html Please let me know what you think about this at holmsoft@dundee.net If you could share this with some friends, I would really appreciate it. Accelerating at one Earth gravity, 32.2 feet per second per second. The Ship will reach 99.9995750753503 percent Light Velocity. At that velocity, one day on the Ship will equal about 343 Earth days. The Ship will be traveling about one Earth Light Year per one Ship day. To reach this velocity will take 11 months 18.13 Ship days or 1 year 6 months 5.41 Earth days. Accelerated by a Ram Jet Fusion Engine using Interstellar Hydrogen for fuel. At near light velocity the Engine Scoops will be collecting billions of Hydogen protons per second. I hope a rock doesn't hit the windshield. Thanks for your time, Larry Holm 09/13/98 holmsoft@dundee.net Belleville, MI. ----- End Included Message ----- From VM Mon Sep 28 09:42:25 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["14621" "Sun" "27" "September" "1998" "17:11:38" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "421" "starship-design: Target Selection (html)" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 14621 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA21917 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 15:13:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA21912 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 15:13:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lparker (p298.gnt.com [204.49.91.58]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id RAA13571 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 17:13:10 -0500 Message-ID: <000a01bdea63$cd85c5c0$c15931cc@lparker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01BDEA39.E4B75EE0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship Design" Subject: starship-design: Target Selection (html) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 17:11:38 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BDEA39.E4B75EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a list of all the stars within 55 light years that match ALL of the selection criteria for planets capable of supporting intelligent terrestrial type life forms within acceptable limits. There may be habitable planets around other stars not listed here, but the odds are very low. The 46 Nearest Stars Similar to the Sun Name Distance (light-years) Magnitude (visual) Luminosity (Sun=1) Spectrum Tau Ceti 11.8 3.5 .4 G8 82 Eridani 20.2 4.3 .7 G5 Zeta Tucanae 23.3 4.2 .9 G2 107 Piscium 24.3 5.2 .4 K1 Beta Comae - - - - Berenices 27.2 4.3 1.2 G0 61 Virginis 27.4 4.7 .8 G6 Alpha Mensae 28.3 5.1 .6 G5 Gliese 75 28.6 5.6 .4 K0 Beta Canum - - - - Venaticorum 29.9 4.3 1.4 G0 Chi Orionis 32 4.4 1.5 G0 54 Piscium 34 5.9 .4 K0 Zeta 1 Reticuli 37 5.5 .7 G2 Zeta 2 Reticuli 37 5.2 .9 G2 Gliese 86 37 6.1 .4 K0 Mu Arae 37 5.1 .9 G5 Gliese 67 38 5.0 1.2 G2 Gliese 668.1 40 6.3 .4 G9 Gliese 302 41 6.0 .6 G8 Gliese 309 41 6.4 .4 K0 Kappa Fornacis 42 5.2 1.3 G1 58 Eridani 42 5.5 .9 G1 Zeta Doradus 44 4.7 2.0 F8 55 Cancri 44 6.0 .7 G8 47 Ursa Majoris 44 5.1 1.5 G0 Gliese 364 45 4.9 1.8 G0 Gliese 599A 45 6.0 .6 G6 Nu Phoenicis 45 5.0 1.8 F8 Gliese 95 45 6.3 .5 G5 Gliese 796 47 5.6 .5 G8 20 Leo Minoris 47 5.4 1.2 G4 39 Tauri 47 5.9 .8 G1 Gliese 290 47 6.6 .4 G8 Gliese 59.2 48 5.7 1.0 G2 Psi Aurigae 49 5.2 1.5 G0 Gliese 722 49 5.9 .9 G4 Gliese 788 49 5.9 .8 G5 Nu 2 Lupi 50 5.6 1.1 G2 14 Herculis 50 6.6 .5 K1 Pi Ursa Majoris 51 5.6 1.2 G0 Phi 2 Ceti 51 5.2 1.8 F8 Gliese 641 52 6.6 .5 G8 Gliese 97.2 52 6.9 .4 K0 Gliese 541.1 53 6.5 .6 G8 109 Piscium 53 6.3 .8 G4 Gliese 651 53 6.8 .4 G8 Gliese 59 53 6.7 .4 G8 This table lists all known stars within a radius of 54 light-years that are single or part of a wide multiple star system. They have no known irregularities or variabilities and are between 0.4 and 2.0 times the luminosity of the sun. Thus, a planet basically identical to Earth could be orbiting around any one of them. (Data from the Catalog of Nearby Stars, 1969 edition, by Wilhelm Gliese.) Lee ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BDEA39.E4B75EE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This=20 is a list of all the stars within 55 light years that match ALL of the = selection=20 criteria for planets capable of supporting intelligent terrestrial type = life=20 forms within acceptable limits. There may be habitable planets around = other=20 stars not listed here, but the odds are very low.=20
 
The 46 Nearest Stars Similar to the=20 Sun
Name Distance (light-years) Magnitude (visual) Luminosity (Sun=3D1) Spectrum
Tau Ceti 11.8 3.5 .4 G8
82 Eridani 20.2 4.3 .7 G5
Zeta Tucanae 23.3 4.2 .9 G2
107 Piscium 24.3 5.2 .4 K1
Beta Comae - - - -
Berenices 27.2 4.3 1.2 G0
61 Virginis 27.4 4.7 .8 G6
Alpha Mensae 28.3 5.1 .6 G5
Gliese 75 28.6 5.6 .4 K0
Beta Canum - - - -
Venaticorum 29.9 4.3 1.4 G0
Chi Orionis 32 4.4 1.5 G0
54 Piscium 34 5.9 .4 K0
Zeta 1 Reticuli 37 5.5 .7 G2
Zeta 2 Reticuli 37 5.2 .9 G2
Gliese 86 37 6.1 .4 K0
Mu Arae 37 5.1 .9 G5
Gliese 67 38 5.0 1.2 G2
Gliese 668.1 40 6.3 .4 G9
Gliese 302 41 6.0 .6 G8
Gliese 309 41 6.4 .4 K0
Kappa Fornacis 42 5.2 1.3 G1
58 Eridani 42 5.5 .9 G1
Zeta Doradus 44 4.7 2.0 F8
55 Cancri 44 6.0 .7 G8
47 Ursa Majoris 44 5.1 1.5 G0
Gliese 364 45 4.9 1.8 G0
Gliese 599A 45 6.0 .6 G6
Nu Phoenicis 45 5.0 1.8 F8
Gliese 95 45 6.3 .5 G5
Gliese 796 47 5.6 .5 G8
20 Leo Minoris 47 5.4 1.2 G4
39 Tauri 47 5.9 .8 G1
Gliese 290 47 6.6 .4 G8
Gliese 59.2 48 5.7 1.0 G2
Psi Aurigae 49 5.2 1.5 G0
Gliese 722 49 5.9 .9 G4
Gliese 788 49 5.9 .8 G5
Nu 2 Lupi 50 5.6 1.1 G2
14 Herculis 50 6.6 .5 K1
Pi Ursa Majoris 51 5.6 1.2 G0
Phi 2 Ceti 51 5.2 1.8 F8
Gliese 641 52 6.6 .5 G8
Gliese 97.2 52 6.9 .4 K0
Gliese 541.1 53 6.5 .6 G8
109 Piscium 53 6.3 .8 G4
Gliese 651 53 6.8 .4 G8
Gliese 59 53 6.7 .4 G8
 
This table lists all known stars within a radius = of 54=20 light-years that are single or part of a wide multiple star system. They = have no=20 known irregularities or variabilities and are between 0.4 and 2.0 times = the=20 luminosity of the sun. Thus, a planet basically identical to Earth could = be=20 orbiting around any one of them. (Data from the Catalog of Nearby Stars, = 1969=20 edition, by Wilhelm Gliese.)
 
 
Lee
 
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BDEA39.E4B75EE0-- From VM Mon Sep 28 09:42:25 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["9833" "Mon" "28" "September" "1998" "01:39:35" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "Shealiak@XS4ALL.nl" nil "154" "RE: starship-design: Bussard drive" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 9833 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA17371 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 16:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.xs4all.nl (smtp1.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.51]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA17355 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 16:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from - (dc2-modem737.dial.xs4all.nl [194.109.130.225]) by smtp1.xs4all.nl (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA25816 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 1998 01:43:28 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980928013935.0068da84@pop.xs4all.nl> X-Sender: shealiak@pop.xs4all.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19980924225645.0068a474@pop.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_906939575==_" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Timothy van der Linden From: Timothy van der Linden Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: starship-design: Bussard drive Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 01:39:35 +0100 --=====================_906939575==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Lee, >How do you generate a field with a sharp boundary? Essentially you don't want a field where it can't contribute. Magnetic shielding (with say iron) would be one solution. Another probably more efficient solution would be to design coils in such a way that the strongest parts of the magnetic field are contained in the volume where one would like them most. I've added a GIF to visualize what I mean with designing/shaping a coil. (WARNING: a little understanding about magnetic fields is necessary) (Red=tube around which electric wire is wound to make an electromagnet) (Blue=part of the magnetic magnetic field outside the coil) In the images, the charged particles are assumed to arrive from the right side. Let's start with image C, a charged particle will spiral towards the mouth of the engine. The stronger the magnetic field, the smaller the "circle" of its path. The magnetic field should be perpendicular on the direction of motion, to accomplish this. (Perpendicular on the direction of motion in these drawings is up/down and inside/outside the paper.) The particles will come from the right, thus we would want want the strongest perpendicular field at the right side. As I hope you can imagine, design B will accomplish this better than design A. Essentially the shape of the edges(openings) of the coil and their direction will shape the field. One can for example also flatten the edges (ie. make them ellipsoidal rather than circular). Also combinations of coils may shape the field more and more as preferred. BTW. You might be able to scoop a neutral particle, since neutral particles can have magnetic spin. I guess though that the magnetic-magnetic interaction between the spin and the scoop field is much less than the electric-magnetic interaction of an ionized atom and the magnetic scoop field. Nels, As far as I know we always meant to use the scooped hydrogen as fuel and propellant, not for propellant alone. We might carry a bit of anti-matter to ignite fusion reactions, but that's about it. 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nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2328 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA25971 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 23:17:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fep2.mail.ozemail.net (fep2.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.122]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA25963 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 23:17:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ozemail.com.au (slbne7p15.ozemail.com.au [203.108.251.207]) by fep2.mail.ozemail.net (8.9.0/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA18150 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 1998 16:17:42 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <360F29A3.6FE159A6@ozemail.com.au> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199809271641.RAA11167@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: AJ Crowl From: AJ Crowl Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Travel close to the speed of light as you fly a Star Ship to a distant Star Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 16:16:07 +1000 Hi Group, Let's see if I can say something sensible. Zenon Kulpa wrote: > I received this letter some time ago, when I was on my holidays. > I have not yet checked the recommended site - maybe it contains > something interesting.. > >From the letter it seems pretty well-known thing already. > > -- Zenon Kulpa > > ----- Begin Included Message ----- > > >From holmsoft@dundee.net Wed Sep 16 04:58:55 1998 > From: "Larry Holm" > To: > Cc: > Subject: Travel close to the speed of light as you fly a Star Ship to a distant Star > Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:08:03 -0400 > Content-Length: 1164 > > Travel close to the speed of light as you fly a Star Ship to a distant > planet into orbit around a distant star. > I've written a program to make some calculations. I'm not sure if I'm crazy > or just wrong, but if I'm right, it might be something to think about and > share with the world. > > Please check it out at http://www.dundee.net/holmsoft/StarTrip.html > > Please let me know what you think about this at holmsoft@dundee.net > > If you could share this with some friends, I would really appreciate it. > > Accelerating at one Earth gravity, 32.2 feet per second per second. > The Ship will reach 99.9995750753503 percent Light Velocity. > At that velocity, one day on the Ship will equal about 343 Earth days. > The Ship will be traveling about one Earth Light Year per one Ship day. > To reach this velocity will take 11 months 18.13 Ship days or 1 year 6 > months 5.41 Earth days. > Accelerated by a Ram Jet Fusion Engine using Interstellar Hydrogen for > fuel. At near light velocity the Engine Scoops will be collecting billions > of Hydogen protons per second. > I hope a rock doesn't hit the windshield. > > Thanks for your time, > Larry Holm 09/13/98 > holmsoft@dundee.net > Belleville, MI. > > ----- End Included Message ----- We all know that a hydro-fusion ramjet just ain't gonna get to 0.9 c let alone .999etc. Also I don't know how Larry calculated his figures but they're way off. To reach a gamma of 343 it'd take 332.5 years real time, and 12.66 years tau. He got the rock against the windshield right though. I'm a bit suspicious. Sounds too eager to have people visit his site and download. Does he have a virus he wants to share? Adam From VM Mon Sep 28 09:42:25 1998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["74" "Mon" "28" "September" "1998" "15:16:57" "+0100" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "1" "starship-design: Test - ignore" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 74 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA03843 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 28 Sep 1998 07:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.8]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA03835 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 1998 07:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id PAA12023; Mon, 28 Sep 1998 15:16:57 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199809281416.PAA12023@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: starship-design: Test - ignore Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 15:16:57 +0100 (MET) Sorry for distraction - I must check some problem with my mailer... -- ZK